Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HelenM · 01-17-2002, 01:40 PM

It seemed like this - part of a rants and raves thread - deserves a thread of its own, in here. I hope Ron doesn't mind me taking the liberty.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Garrett:

I throw these things into the balance against Christianity:

1. Christianity begins by attacking the basic worth of everyone while claiming to hold people in highest value. Otherwise moral and productive members of society must be convinced that they are defective, insecure, incapable and weak, and in fact that an invisible all-powerful being plans to do them eternal and on-going injury because they do not have his approval. Christianity creates a problem in order for Christianity to be presented as a solution.

2. The Christian focus on grace-based salvation sets a very low bar that allows otherwise nasty and unproductive members of society to hold themelves in high regard on the basis of their faith and insider status with the Creator.

3. Christianity inculcates a "fortress mentality" of believer against the forces of darkness, and in fact demonizes outsiders to the effect of justifying anti-social, uncivil and even criminal behavior against those who it disapproves.

4. Christianity drains social resources for the support of a parasitic priestly class who set themselves up as defenders of the sheep in exchange for a cut of the wool. We frequently see that the only wolves Christians need to be defended against are the wolves in their pulpits.

5. Rather than building its members up and improving their lives, Christianity in fact continually works to create greater dependence and servility in the members of the cult, engaging in psychological abuses and emotional manipulation in the name of piety, the ultimate end of which is secular power, social dominance, and quite often the personal power, enrichment and aggrandizement of its leaders.

6. Throughout history Christianity has aligned itself with secular power and even become the secular power, serving to provide divine impimatur for all manner of crimes and inhumane acts, including: wars of conquest and rapine, seizure of private property, enslavement of other human beings, religious persecutions, assasinations, murder of minority populations, tyranny, bigotry, slaughter and genocide.

It will not do for Christians to wave these things aside as being inconsistent with their faith when for 20 centuries other Christians have found these things not only consistent with their faith, but even approved by and mandated by God. I do not doubt for a moment that should Christians even regain secular power the murders and persecutions would be renewed instantly, and with a vigor not seen since the witch burning craze of Europe.

I see very little to commend Christianity. As a teacher and philospher the Jesus of the Bible was unremarkable and in fact very derivative. As a system of salvation it is utterly common, and indeed I am sure largely stolen outright from Mithraism. It's claims of possession of a divine book are as spurious as those of any other religion and as easily disproved. Its inability to unify and inspire is clear to this day as the Christians throughout the world continue to fracture and divide and attack each other with more vehemence than their enemies ever have. Its inability to strengthen the families of its followers is obvious in that Christian experience of divorce rates are no different than the rest of the population. Its inability to correct social ills is clear in that in the country where Christianity wields the greatest influence, the United States, drug addiction, murder, teen pregnancy and other social problems far exceed the rates experienced in countries that are essentially agnostic.

I can only think that if all the energy we put into dealing with our culture religious tinkerings were put into education in basic math and sciences, into health care research, into any effort to improve the human condition in this life, instead of play pretend about the next life, what would we have accomplished by now?

Christianity is evil, dangerous, demeaning and detrimental to human society. It is no better that voodoo or devil worship. Indeed what greater devil than the Christian God who proposes to burn the infidel eternally in flames of torment? All persons of good will will work diligently toward the day when such malignant superstitions are banished to our savage past.

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]

sullster · 01-17-2002, 02:49 PM

I like the posting and admire Ron for effectively writing what I would like to write on the subject if I was as articulate as he.

I totally agree with him about the resumption of killing if the religious took over the government. Of course armed groups would arise to fight the religions but it would be a bleak country in the midst of constant civil war. A new dark age.

I realise this posting was put here to shock and bemuse, but I for one find his arguments compelling and insightful. Religion is a terrible thing and it is right to point this out.

HelenM · 01-17-2002, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster:
I realise this posting was put here to shock and bemuse, but I for one find his arguments compelling and insightful.

I didn't put it here to shock and bemuse, sullster but because I thought it was articulate and well-written and wouldn't get noticed where it was.

love
Helen

Hedwig · 01-17-2002, 03:04 PM

Thanks for giving this it's due thread, Helen. I really really liked it. I think I'll actually copy it and save it because that is very insightful.

Anunnaki · 01-17-2002, 05:04 PM

HelenSL:

Quote:

It seemed like this - part of a rants and raves thread - deserves a thread of its own, in here. I hope Ron doesn't mind me taking the liberty.

Helen,
I`ve read dozens of your posts and notice that you agree with almost all the anti Christian view points expressed on these forums. You seem like a very intelligent and thoughtful woman AND you have more posts here than anyone else!

Why on Earth do you continue to call yourself a Christian? Maybe I missed the big post where you answered this,but what is holding to these beliefs?

Btw,
I have to add that I also admire Ron`s articulation. He and Richard Carrier are my two favorite posters on this site. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Ron Garrett · 01-18-2002, 06:52 AM

I am humbled, and a bit embarassed to find my name posted in the same sentence with Richard Carrier, who has my deepest admiration, my most profound respect, and who possesses a keeness of intellect that I fear my genetic inheritance will never accomodate. Thank you.

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

HelenM · 01-18-2002, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunnaki:
Helen,
I`ve read dozens of your posts and notice that you agree with almost all the anti Christian view points expressed on these forums. You seem like a very intelligent and thoughtful woman AND you have more posts here than anyone else!

Why on Earth do you continue to call yourself a Christian? Maybe I missed the big post where you answered this,but what is holding to these beliefs?

I said somewhere that I'm not sure it would be more accurate to say "I am not a Christian" than "I am a Christian".

It is complicated because Christians have different views on what a Christian actually is.

So, whose definition do I use, to determine whether I am one or not?

And what if I'm not sure what I believe?

One thing I am totally sure about, is that agreeing with complaints people have about Christianity, does not in any way stop me being a Christian. I mean, is there anything perfect in your life? Don't you have some things you'd like to change about anything you're involved in? Your 'significant other' for example?

(If you have one) Organizations you belong to?

So...well, basically I haven't found a compelling reason to say I am NOT a Christian, to date

. So, apparently, I am a rather complaining sort of Christian

It's important to read my posts carefully, btw. I didn't say I agreed with everything Ron said, now, did I?

And, notwithstanding that, Ron, I agree with any comments in praise of your ability to express your thoughts well

But then, you already knew I was in your 'fan club'! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

love
Helen

Anunnaki · 01-18-2002, 08:43 AM

HelenSL,
It appears that I`m not going to get the simple answer I was looking for.

And yes. There are many types of Christians out there,but the one thing that all Christians have in common is the belief that Jesus is the resurrected son of God.
Either you believe Jesus really is the resurrected son of God or you don`t. If you don`t believe this than I would think that you`re not considered a Christian by default.

Btw,
I did not say that you agreed with everything Ron said in the post you copied. What I said was that you seem to agree in general to most of what everyone here has to say in regards to Christianity being false and generally messed up. Perhaps in some cases I`ve taken the liberty to decide that you agree just based on your lack of rebuttles to some of the things said here? I apologize if this is the case.

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]

HelenM · 01-18-2002, 10:43 AM

Anunnaki

Honestly, I really don't have a simple answer.

Quote:

the one thing that all Christians have in common is the belief that Jesus is the resurrected son of God

I think you must be unaware of the writings of people like Crossan, Borg, Spong. The members of the Jesus Seminar - some of them call themselves Christians and they do not believe Jesus is the 'resurrected son of God'. They believe in the 'Christ of faith' as separate from Jesus of Nazareth. Crossan thinks Jesus' body was thrown in a ditch and dogs ate it (if I recall right).

And are people who profess belief but don't live like Christians - are they really Christians anyway? I mean, true Christians?

I don't know how to make it as simple as you did, Anunnaki, with all due respect

But anyway, you don't need to apologize

- I just wanted you to be aware that I try to be quite intentional about how I word things. If I didn't say I agree then maybe I don't.

love
Helen

Nohweh · 01-22-2002, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:
[QB]
And are people who profess belief but don't live like Christians - are they really Christians anyway? I mean, true Christians?

How does a true Christian live Helen?

01-18-2002, 06:52 AM	#6
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	I am humbled, and a bit embarassed to find my name posted in the same sentence with Richard Carrier, who has my deepest admiration, my most profound respect, and who possesses a keeness of intellect that I fear my genetic inheritance will never accomodate. Thank you. [ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]</p>

01-18-2002, 08:43 AM	#8
Anunnaki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I`ve left and gone away Posts: 699	HelenSL, It appears that I`m not going to get the simple answer I was looking for. And yes. There are many types of Christians out there,but the one thing that all Christians have in common is the belief that Jesus is the resurrected son of God. Either you believe Jesus really is the resurrected son of God or you don`t. If you don`t believe this than I would think that you`re not considered a Christian by default. Btw, I did not say that you agreed with everything Ron said in the post you copied. What I said was that you seem to agree in general to most of what everyone here has to say in regards to Christianity being false and generally messed up. Perhaps in some cases I`ve taken the liberty to decide that you agree just based on your lack of rebuttles to some of the things said here? I apologize if this is the case. [ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

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01-17-2002, 02:49 PM	#2
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	I like the posting and admire Ron for effectively writing what I would like to write on the subject if I was as articulate as he. I totally agree with him about the resumption of killing if the religious took over the government. Of course armed groups would arise to fight the religions but it would be a bleak country in the midst of constant civil war. A new dark age. I realise this posting was put here to shock and bemuse, but I for one find his arguments compelling and insightful. Religion is a terrible thing and it is right to point this out.

01-17-2002, 03:04 PM	#4
Hedwig Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 3,921	Thanks for giving this it's due thread, Helen. I really really liked it. I think I'll actually copy it and save it because that is very insightful.

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