David M. Payne

At best I think our theist friends here have three choices. In the end this thread has shown pretty clearly that the Abrahamic God is either a monstrous mass murderer without pity or concern for those he drowned, or he's a myth.

Of course one can always try no. three; to claim what he was supposed to have done in the great flood was OK because, well, he's God, he has a plan we can't really understand, and he can do what ever he pleases! We get this one a lot here

David

Rational BAC

Most of you are preaching to the choir here (whoops, probably a poor choice of words)

I also do not believe in any way that the Bible is inerrant. You can bring up horror stories of atrocities, and innacuracies and just plain silliness in the Bible all day long to me and I will agree with you in every way. I see it too.

Do not think that just because Christian fundamentalists tend to get in your face with irrational ideas that all Christians are that way. Fundamentalists are the definite minority of Christians even though by all the noise they make you might get the impression they are the overwhelming majority.

The great majority of mainstream Christians are like myself as far as the Bible is concerned------cafeteria Christians, or cherry pickers if you like. I may take cherry picking to a farther extreme than most Christians do-------but that is beside the point. Once you have made the conscious decision to cherry pick, then it is up to each individual to decide how far to go.

Just because I think that the Bible is mostly a lot of hogwash does not make me unchristian or not a believer---that is not true at all for me and it is not true at all for most Christians.

Here is my position on this. ---

SOMETHING happened 2000 years ago. Not sure exactly what happened but something definitely happened to cause the creation of the largest faith in the world today. The subject is not one that anyone should honestly just ignore, at least in my opinion.

So what have we got to give any kind of indication of the details of what happened all those years ago?----------unless you are a religious scholar, you are pretty much stuck with the Bible as errant as it may be.

So I have no problem at all picking through a whole pile of garbage to try and find some jewels there. What I find that I determine to be correct and of truly divine inspiration is a personal choice of mine.

I encourage everyone else to do the same-----pick out what you like, pitch the rest. (It is what most Christians do anyway).

And if you happen to want to ignore the whole thing---have decided for yourself that absolutely nothing worth concerning yourself about happened 2000 years ago ---or maybe that nothing happened at all ---just a tall story, an oral tradition that got way out of hand.----that is your choice. No skin off my teeth.

BadBadBad

Rational BAC,

I think it's great that you are rational enough to recognize at least some nonsense when you see it. You'll have to excuse us though when you say "cafeteria Christians choose the most rational solution to a perplexing question. And a very easy solution to justify." That's just simply not true, and if you don't agree, we're still waiting for the very easy justification. Why don't start a thread called the Very Easy Justification, write it all down, and we'll go through it with you.

Something did happen 2000 years ago. It's called fraud, lies, ignorance, and stupidity. This continues through today not through logic and thoughtful reasoning, but through the traditions based indoctrination, ie brain washing, of children into religion. My point of view is easy to justify, and if you were brought up in a Muslim family in Saudi Arabia without your childhood indoctrination into christianity, you'd agree with me.

Like I said, if you want to pick and choose what you believe in, loosely relate it to what is says in the bible, and call it christianity, great. Just don't come here, claim that God isn't the biggest mass murderer in history, tell us that only a fraction of the Bible is true, and then expect to get too much respect for your point of view. We're all cafeteria christians. I believe the part about love thy neighbor, except when I don't. I throw out the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the concept of God for the same reason you throw out suicidal demon possed pigs.

Jobar

Well! Rational, I find your honesty refreshing- we see too many around here who try to say that the whole Bible is Ultimate TRUTH and contains nothing imperfect.

I think your POV is the only reasonable one for any believer. I, too, find much of wisdom and admirable ethics in the Bible- few of us here are 'reverse fundies' who say that the *entire* Bible is nothing but evil hogwash.

The thing is- I see no center. There is nothing in the Bible which forms a core around which all who proclaim themselves Christian (or Jewish, or Muslim) can gather. How do you decide what to follow, amongst all the contradictory imperatives to be found in the Bible? Do you think that Fred Phelps (the author of godhatesfags.com) is justified in his beliefs? The verses he quotes against homosexuality *are* in the Bible, you know. How do you claim that Jesus prefers 'love thy neighbor' over 'sell your cloak and buy a sword'?

By your feelings, and by your own personal ethical beliefs? Rational, that is how we skeptics do it!

If you call yourself a Christian, how do you deal with the many others who also name themselves that, and then say and do things which you find evil and disgusting- and say that since you do not believe and act as they do, you are not a *true* Christian?

Do you then say that *they* aren't 'true Christians'?

So much dispute and hatred and war without quarter has been generated by this quandry over the millenia, that Dave can make a strong claim that God (the idea or myth of God, not any actual being, in which he and I do not believe) is the single greatest cause of bloodshed and misery and evil in human history. And I have not seen a single argument in this long thread which weakens his claim.

BadBadBad

Despite claims from our cafeteria friends here, this God the good monstrous murderer is way more popular than they'd like to admit. Their definition of "fundie" is way more limited than what I've seen growing up in Texas.

You forgot the fourth option, which we're getting from the cafeterians. God didn't kill anyone. All the God killing is lies and fabrication, but God isn't a myth. Which do you think is the most intellectually dishonest?

DBrant

Religious zealots started exterminating people who dared to question a single word that they preached (This definitely would have included people like you, btw). But hey, they were only doing god's work (which has always involved mass murder). Eventually, such a profound fear was instilled in the population, that parents taught their children this religion simply for their own safety. And this fear was perpetuated for 2000 years. No wonder the biggest religions that survived to this day are fear-based.
Tell that to a Christian. Better yet, tell that to a Christian of the 15th century. Or are you going to tell me that Christians have been doing it all wrong for the past 2000 years, and you're one of the first to get it right? You might as well write your own Bible and start an online ministry.

Rational BAC

You misinterpret me.

You seem to be used to dealing with fundamentalist Christians. They are only a VERY vocal minority of Christianity. Very understandable---it is the fundies who get in your face and demand that you change your reasoning to match theirs.

But fundies are still a minority of Christians. The rest of us, if you pin us down are very rational, and pick and choose what we like from the Bible.

I may pick and choose more than even the average mainstream Christian in this matter----------but that is just a matter of degree, not of essence.

Christians for the most part are not half bad and can be quite rational about metaphysics just as long as you stay away from the fundies ------

-----Hard to do I know---Fundies do like to get right in your face and "convert" or "save" you.

BadBadBad

Several things. First, all christians pick and choose from the Bible. Some just won't admit it. Second, fundie is a general term with a fairly wide range of christians included in it. It's kind of difficult to call them the minority. Third, we don't think you're half bad. We just question your assertion about rationality. You have yet to explain how your beliefs are rational.

DBrant

I started a new thread in "Biblical Criticism" to address cafeteria christianity.

David M. Payne

Heads its, God's not a mass murderer, Tails it's, He is to real! Anyone got a three-sided coin, I want another option.

David