sentinel00

I was reading a very good book by Matthew Chapman called Trials of the Monkey, in which he asks the following questions:

His numbers might be off, but the sentiments remain even after the numbers are corrected. Christians must ask themselves: Why is it that in countries where belief in god is at a very low level, crime is also similarly at a low level? Are your beliefs the reason it is so dangerous for innocent people to live here?

(* Edited to remove Amazon Link *)

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: The Sentinel ]</p>

Dr S

That's a great book.
I found the section on Prof Kurt Wise of Bryan College spine chilling. The way the guy just drops everything he knows to be a fact about evolution so that he can remain a believer was frightening. That mindset probably has some bearing on the Xian lack of morality.

Jobar

Hi Sentinel- depending on where this goes, I may move it to Moral Foundations.

If you have further discussion on it which leads to a more 'EoG' type topic, I'll leave it here, of course. J.

sentinel00

Jobar,

I thought this a good place for this discussion because, rather than directly argue the existence/non-existence, it brought up the implications belief in the existence of god is having on our country. It is still, however, about belief in god.

My problem now, as before whenever I've posted here, is that my challenge is too good. What christian in his right mind would touch this thread? For that reason alone, moving it is probably a good idea!

Ab_Normal

*hits self in head to enter Xian mode*

Why, it must be because most of the people claiming to be Christians aren't *true* Christians!

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Sentinel,
Matt Chapmans 'point' really boils down to this statement 'Crime is so high in the US because of Christianity'

This of course is a dubious statement...it assumes 2 things: A-that immorality is high in the US compared to other cultures. B-this immorality is caused by god belief. Neither of these is true.

Case in point: Why is the crime rate of Holland lower than the crime rate of the US? Is it because they are more moral? No. In fact crime is lower in Holland BECAUSE they don't arrest people for drug use or prostitution. However, most people would consider drug use and prostitution immoral behavior.

What about more godless cultures like Japan? Though the crime rate is lower few would say that they have higher morality. Women who work in Tokyo and take the subway in EXPECT to be sexually groped at least a few times before they leave the train. That's pretty bad. Do they report it? There are so many cases of it that it is considered passe.

These are just a few illustrations of why 'higher crime rate' does not imply 'lower morality'.


The most obvious fault with Chapmans pose is the implied notion that crime is *caused* by god belief.



It is this implied notion that he uses to lay the blame of all American criminals on those with god belief. In fact, many criminals don't believe in God. This would imply that lack of God belief has a positive influence on immorality.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,


SOMMS

Jamie_L

SOMMS

I haven't read the book, but the quote in the OP appears (to me) to actully boil down to "High levels of Christianity in the U.S. have not produced a more moral country." Sentinel goes on to make the further claim that Christianity actually reduces morality (as evidenced by increased crime).

I agree with you (surprise, surprise) that any correlation between Christianity and crime in the U.S. is spurious - that is, I don't believe this correlation (if real) would be enough to conclude Christianity causes crime.

However, I don't believe your criticism of morality-vs-crime fits the quote entirely. The first three crimes mentioned (murder, rape, pedophilia) I think we can agree are both immoral and criminal. They are certainly immoral by Christian standards. Now, without additional info, we can't know if the quote's claims are true: that these crimes are more prevalent in the U.S. than other countries.

BUT, if Christianity produces moral behavior, which is a claim often made by Christians, a country with more Christians SHOULD have a lower incidence of crimes considered immoral by Christians, all else being equal.

Does the U.S. have fewer murders, rapes, and child molestations than similar countries with fewer devout Christians? If not, this certainly casts doubt on the idea that Christianity leads to morality. I don't have any data in front of me regarding that.

I would also say it's mere assertion to say people who commit immoral crimes don't believe in God. They may believe in God, but choose to ignore the implications. There seems no reason at this time to assume criminals have a different ratio of believers-to-non-believers as the general population.

Jamie

Adrian Selby

I don't think that's Chapman's point, perhaps his point is that with so many people supposedly Christian and espousing Christian values, this huge swell isn't having an effect on the non christians and on society, rather than the effect of being a christian stopping with each individual christian, for example, feeding or helping the homeless, and other acts of samaritan like charity, why aren't these being performed so much more widespread and often, why so comparatively little to established charities.

I am fully aware that the problem is that people believe in God but don't act on it, I wonder therefore whether they actually do believe, only if, as an atheist, I came to know God existed, then I can't see how I would do other than start acting in a far more generous sense, and get to know and understand my role much better through prayer and guidance etc.

Right now, I am as good as I'm prepared to be, but with God watching, I think I'd be compelled to act, rightly or wrongly, far more charitably, because, well, to know God is real would blow me away, this whole new dimension of existence, this whole being able to see my friends again, this lack of death, man, I wouldn't give a shit about money and material wealth, I'd do what i had to do to survive, and i'd make sure i was out with others.

I do not, furthermore, understand this behaviour to be rigidly idiosyncratic, and on that basis, I therefore do see a problem with the statistics as expressed.

Ultimately, it seems that 98% of Americans aren't actually Christian in any serious sense.

Adrian

Volker

Hi,

you might already know it, but here ist a link about the correlation between christianity and moral behaviour:

<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/september99/barker.html" target="_blank">Believers Are No Better</a> by Dan Barker.

There is no correlation between belief and morality, at least no positive correlation. That shows that moral does not need an "absolute foundation" like god, which is opposite to what most christians believe to be true.

Believers think they live a better life, but there is no statistical data that shows this.

If you look at the facts, there is no god that helps them. And not even the belief helps them.

Jayhawker Soule

It is my opinion that the efficacy of belief says nothing about the "Existence of God(s)", while the second question suggests little more than a cum hoc fallacy.