Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chip · 11-19-2002, 04:28 PM

Philosoft, Corwin recognizes one possibility as to who or what actively suppresses the development of CF. You can find more speculation at <a href="http://www.konformist.com/weirdscience/koldfusion.htm" target="_blank">http://www.konformist.com/weirdscience/koldfusion.htm</a> which I noted earlier.

I found one of the other "Karen Silkwoods" doing a search for "Another Karen Silkwood" but that one seems to mainly be concerning asbestos contamination claims (at a nuclear power plant)though is somewhat interesting in its own light. The one I really wanted to find is the enrichment plant safety inspector who was last seen alive having an argument with the plant foreman and later his bones were found in a plant furnace. Maybe it was a Simpsons or some sci-fi thriller or maybe the reference I read years ago has been purged from public availability. However, I did come accross the book "Killing Our Own" by Wasserman and Solomon. It is out of print now but you can get the whole text from <a href="http://www.ratical.org/radiation/KillingOurOwn/" target="_blank">http://www.ratical.org/radiation/KillingOurOwn/</a> which appears to include reference to many cover-ups by many nuclear industry businesses and governmental bodies concerning deaths and injuries via unsafe practices at nuclear facilities. The burden of proof is relegated to the victims and their families while damning evidence dissapears. If the nuclear industries are willing to fight any such claims with apparent fervor, why not also attempt to suppress new technology that potentially jeopardizes their cash cow? What about the depleted Uranium munitions controversy and the Gulf War syndrome denials by the highest echelons of our so-called government? Might these be more evidence of conspiracy against life? If you look elsewhere here at IIDB you can see that I find nationalism (check out the quote by Einstein at the beginning of the "Killing Our Own" book linked above) to be preoccupation with fantasy, with fraudulent alliance, widespread conspiracy against life for the sake of fantasies. It is one thing to be an atheist but to believe in the sanctity of the institutions that were created by theists does not appear as evidence of free thinking.

Think about it. If there was a possible energy source that was safe and small enough to be employed on a community level, that did not require a huge governmental bureacracy, a virtual police state to protect against terrorism or accident, it would be a direct challenge to the powers that be.

Regards, Chip

Arrowman · 11-19-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chip:
If the nuclear industries are willing to fight any such claims with apparent fervor, why not also attempt to suppress new technology that potentially jeopardizes their cash cow?

Even allowing that the various claims about nuclear industry coverups have some basis, there is a difference between covering up unsafe and illegal practice in your company/industry*, and suppressing a new technology.

Think about it. You are CEO of a major energy (nuclear, oil, whatever) company. You are aware of research being done into a new, viable form of energy which would blow yours out of the water. Meanwhile, your own product either has a strictly limited future (fossil fuel) or is politically unpopular (nuclear). You could engage in covert and illegal activity to suppress this new research, or you could....

Find those scientists, hire them, lock them away in a lab until they finish their work, and then nail down the patent so tight that your company, its shareholders and you get rich beyond the dreams of Croesus and dominate the world energy market for the next 500 years.

I know what my choice would be. And that's [one of the reasons] why I don't give a lot of credence to this sort of conspiracy theory.

* By the way - people are all too willing to ascribe ulterior motives to entire industries based not so much on demonstrated behaviour of that industry in the past, as on a general perception that the industry in question is "unsavoury". As we all know [sarcasm], nuclear energy and fossil fuel energy is dirty and evil - therefore any company involved in that industry, including its executives, is evil, and therefore we should be willing to believe all manner of major conspiracy and coverup stories pertaining to any company in that industry.

Chip · 11-19-2002, 08:35 PM

Why don�t these folks at the top of their industries embrace and attempt to sequester the development of appropriate technologies, be it solar cells, fuel cells, hybrid vehicles, cold fusion or whatever for their own profit? I�ve had the opportunity to study a very wealthy family over the last few years from close-up, being a care-giver for a partially disabled patriarch who is worth perhaps as much as a couple of hundred million dollars. In his friends and family I see this belief that they have lots of money because they are better than other people. They look down on the masses as so much garbage that is not worth a plug nickel. They live in ivory towers that are as limiting to their freedoms and options as the ghetto dweller and they exhibit the same �might makes right� philosophy of the gang leader on the streets.

I can see three reasons why they don�t work to develop appropriate technologies. First of all they consider people from their own ranks who begin to show some compassion or altruism to be crazy and work to limit the freedoms and options of such traitors in their midst. They strongly believe and have lived by the rule of the jungle for most if not all of their lives. They want a world where power is for those who take it. A world where there is enough for all is a totally alien concept for them. They live and control the lives of others on the basis of their having power that is not and cannot be available to all. Secondly they do not want to become enemies of their brothers in arms, the other bosses of their crime syndicates (read international corporations). They are quite aware of the means available to them and their ranks for suppressing and thwarting any �out-of-line� or unacceptable behavior. They would much rather kill the poorest people to take over Afghanistan for an oil pipe line through-way or take Iraq for the oil there than work to develop sane options that might mean fighting with their equals. Thirdly, these people who have the greatest powers based on sustained ignorance believe the very lies they help propagate. They are immersed in illusion, have all the cable, satellite and broadcast television possible, go and see all of the latest movies at the most expensive theatres and rarely read any books or news, considering newspapers the voice of the liberal left, news for the masses who in their eyes are so much grist for the mill.

I�m afraid what you are suggesting, Arrowman, is the same as asking why don�t heroin addicts get off their habit on their own. They can�t. They�re stuck. They don�t know the options and don�t want to.

Regards, Chip

Arrowman · 11-19-2002, 08:48 PM

Wow, Chip, I think you've been watching too much of The Simpsons.

Chip · 11-19-2002, 09:14 PM

DOH!

Gauge Boson · 11-20-2002, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain:
Oh, I imagine it turned into a fake pretty quickly, but I highly doubt that it was one to start with. It just doesn't make any sense for it to have begun as a deliberate hoax. Think about it - if they truly thought they had found something why bother to wait for peer review when you can be rich and famous now? Of course, you're totally screwed if it turns out to be nothing, forced to choose between admitting your stupidity or resorting to deliberate fraud. They chose fraud.

I completely agree. The pair definitely showed all the traits of the hermit scientist type. They separated themselves from their collegues, discussed their work with nobody, and only worked with each other (yes, the hermit scientist type includes pairs with all the traits). One thing these hermits typically have in common is that they pitch their 'dicoveries' directly to the public, either through the news media or books. Some of them are frauds or total nuts, but P&F weren't (at first).

MadMordigan · 11-20-2002, 01:39 AM

Concerning Stenger, appears that he is virtually a career skeptic.

Since there are many more claims about the way the universe works that are false than those which are true, this seems like an integral character trait in a good scientist.

I find no reference to any original contributions to science by him.

He was one of the pioneers in the development of high neutrino astronomy as an early associate director of the DUMAND project. Most recently, Professor Stenger was a coauthor on the 1998 paper that reported the observation of neutrino oscillations in the Super-Kamiokande experiment in Japan. This provided the first evidence that neutrinos have mass, with important implications for both fundamental physics and cosmology.

From <a href="http://seercom.com/bcs/resources/people/stenger.html" target="_blank">here.</a>

Next time, try <a href="http://www.google.com." target="_blank">www.google.com.</a> One's failure to operate a simple search engine doesn't exactly inspire confidence in one's other research.

Jack the Bodiless · 11-20-2002, 02:30 AM

In the UK, where fuel taxes are high, it is becoming common knowledge that diesel engines will run on a cheap mixture based on vegetable cooking oils (such as sunflower oil). The government is worried, and is warning people that the use of such a fuel will be harshly punished as tax exasion.

Where are the similar warnings about the use of cold fusion? Where are the thousands or millions of people worldwide who are zipping about in cold-fusion buggies, powering their houses with illicit cold-fusion rigs in the basement, and bragging on the Net about beating the system?

Even if it was being actively suppressed, cold fusion would be THE underground commodity: bigger than cocaine smuggling. It would be the basis of the most powerful and lucrative black market the world has ever seen. And any nation willing to get in on the act would be an instant superpower, with an unlimited-energy economy and unlimited-energy military vehicles. Even if it feared a confrontation with the US here on Earth, it could escape into space and colonize the Solar System.

...So why isn't this happening?

There is one rather obvious explanation.

Butters · 11-20-2002, 04:00 AM

O.K. Chip, forget all the conspirisy theories, coverups, etc. Maybe you can explain to us exactly how cold fusion works?

Corwin · 11-20-2002, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Butters:
O.K. Chip, forget all the conspirisy theories, coverups, etc. Maybe you can explain to us exactly how cold fusion works?

And here's the problem.

Nobody in this community... (or damned few) will accept anything at all about cold fusion except 'well it HAS to be a fake cuz it's just impossible!!!!' unless a layman can provide a detailed explanation of the subatomic reactions involved.

Hello.... allow me to quote Einstein here... 'Well if we knew what we were doing it wouldn't be called RESEARCH now, would it?'

I've been doing my damnedest to stay out of this discussion. It's a losing proposition for anyone that doesn't worship James Rand. (Who, while I respect the man, I have no illusions about...) Bottom line. Cold fusion, such as it is, has gotten results. It isn't reliable, it isn't completely (or even well) understood... Yes it was taken to the media too quickly. (Although this was more the fault of the University than it was of the researchers.) Of course when someone comes out and shouts the magic incantiation 'FRINGE SCIENCE FRINGE SCIENCE FRINGE SCIENCE!!!' bye bye funding.

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11-19-2002, 04:28 PM	#31
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	Philosoft, Corwin recognizes one possibility as to who or what actively suppresses the development of CF. You can find more speculation at <a href="http://www.konformist.com/weirdscience/koldfusion.htm" target="_blank">http://www.konformist.com/weirdscience/koldfusion.htm</a> which I noted earlier. I found one of the other "Karen Silkwoods" doing a search for "Another Karen Silkwood" but that one seems to mainly be concerning asbestos contamination claims (at a nuclear power plant)though is somewhat interesting in its own light. The one I really wanted to find is the enrichment plant safety inspector who was last seen alive having an argument with the plant foreman and later his bones were found in a plant furnace. Maybe it was a Simpsons or some sci-fi thriller or maybe the reference I read years ago has been purged from public availability. However, I did come accross the book "Killing Our Own" by Wasserman and Solomon. It is out of print now but you can get the whole text from <a href="http://www.ratical.org/radiation/KillingOurOwn/" target="_blank">http://www.ratical.org/radiation/KillingOurOwn/</a> which appears to include reference to many cover-ups by many nuclear industry businesses and governmental bodies concerning deaths and injuries via unsafe practices at nuclear facilities. The burden of proof is relegated to the victims and their families while damning evidence dissapears. If the nuclear industries are willing to fight any such claims with apparent fervor, why not also attempt to suppress new technology that potentially jeopardizes their cash cow? What about the depleted Uranium munitions controversy and the Gulf War syndrome denials by the highest echelons of our so-called government? Might these be more evidence of conspiracy against life? If you look elsewhere here at IIDB you can see that I find nationalism (check out the quote by Einstein at the beginning of the "Killing Our Own" book linked above) to be preoccupation with fantasy, with fraudulent alliance, widespread conspiracy against life for the sake of fantasies. It is one thing to be an atheist but to believe in the sanctity of the institutions that were created by theists does not appear as evidence of free thinking. Think about it. If there was a possible energy source that was safe and small enough to be employed on a community level, that did not require a huge governmental bureacracy, a virtual police state to protect against terrorism or accident, it would be a direct challenge to the powers that be. Regards, Chip

11-19-2002, 08:35 PM	#33
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	Why don�t these folks at the top of their industries embrace and attempt to sequester the development of appropriate technologies, be it solar cells, fuel cells, hybrid vehicles, cold fusion or whatever for their own profit? I�ve had the opportunity to study a very wealthy family over the last few years from close-up, being a care-giver for a partially disabled patriarch who is worth perhaps as much as a couple of hundred million dollars. In his friends and family I see this belief that they have lots of money because they are better than other people. They look down on the masses as so much garbage that is not worth a plug nickel. They live in ivory towers that are as limiting to their freedoms and options as the ghetto dweller and they exhibit the same �might makes right� philosophy of the gang leader on the streets. I can see three reasons why they don�t work to develop appropriate technologies. First of all they consider people from their own ranks who begin to show some compassion or altruism to be crazy and work to limit the freedoms and options of such traitors in their midst. They strongly believe and have lived by the rule of the jungle for most if not all of their lives. They want a world where power is for those who take it. A world where there is enough for all is a totally alien concept for them. They live and control the lives of others on the basis of their having power that is not and cannot be available to all. Secondly they do not want to become enemies of their brothers in arms, the other bosses of their crime syndicates (read international corporations). They are quite aware of the means available to them and their ranks for suppressing and thwarting any �out-of-line� or unacceptable behavior. They would much rather kill the poorest people to take over Afghanistan for an oil pipe line through-way or take Iraq for the oil there than work to develop sane options that might mean fighting with their equals. Thirdly, these people who have the greatest powers based on sustained ignorance believe the very lies they help propagate. They are immersed in illusion, have all the cable, satellite and broadcast television possible, go and see all of the latest movies at the most expensive theatres and rarely read any books or news, considering newspapers the voice of the liberal left, news for the masses who in their eyes are so much grist for the mill. I�m afraid what you are suggesting, Arrowman, is the same as asking why don�t heroin addicts get off their habit on their own. They can�t. They�re stuck. They don�t know the options and don�t want to. Regards, Chip

11-19-2002, 08:48 PM	#34
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	Wow, Chip, I think you've been watching too much of The Simpsons.

11-19-2002, 09:14 PM	#35
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	DOH!

11-20-2002, 01:39 AM	#37
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	Concerning Stenger, appears that he is virtually a career skeptic. Since there are many more claims about the way the universe works that are false than those which are true, this seems like an integral character trait in a good scientist. I find no reference to any original contributions to science by him. He was one of the pioneers in the development of high neutrino astronomy as an early associate director of the DUMAND project. Most recently, Professor Stenger was a coauthor on the 1998 paper that reported the observation of neutrino oscillations in the Super-Kamiokande experiment in Japan. This provided the first evidence that neutrinos have mass, with important implications for both fundamental physics and cosmology. From <a href="http://seercom.com/bcs/resources/people/stenger.html" target="_blank">here.</a> Next time, try <a href="http://www.google.com." target="_blank">www.google.com.</a> One's failure to operate a simple search engine doesn't exactly inspire confidence in one's other research.

11-20-2002, 02:30 AM	#38
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	In the UK, where fuel taxes are high, it is becoming common knowledge that diesel engines will run on a cheap mixture based on vegetable cooking oils (such as sunflower oil). The government is worried, and is warning people that the use of such a fuel will be harshly punished as tax exasion. Where are the similar warnings about the use of cold fusion? Where are the thousands or millions of people worldwide who are zipping about in cold-fusion buggies, powering their houses with illicit cold-fusion rigs in the basement, and bragging on the Net about beating the system? Even if it was being actively suppressed, cold fusion would be THE underground commodity: bigger than cocaine smuggling. It would be the basis of the most powerful and lucrative black market the world has ever seen. And any nation willing to get in on the act would be an instant superpower, with an unlimited-energy economy and unlimited-energy military vehicles. Even if it feared a confrontation with the US here on Earth, it could escape into space and colonize the Solar System. ...So why isn't this happening? There is one rather obvious explanation.

11-20-2002, 04:00 AM	#39
Butters Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 444	O.K. Chip, forget all the conspirisy theories, coverups, etc. Maybe you can explain to us exactly how cold fusion works?

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