Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Danya · 03-21-2002, 07:15 PM

three4jump, All of your points make sense. One more advantage I can see is for law enforcement, border patrols, and prisons.

Pseudonymph · 03-21-2002, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by three4jump:
SirenSpeak, thanks. It must suck to have to look after your parents when they're supposed to be the ones looking after you. I wish I had some good advice on how to deal with them, but I haven't yet found a way to intervene without causing more problems. The only thing I can say is that I try to let people know that I am opposed to their drug use but I am supportive of them in other aspects of their lives. My condemnation applies to usage and not the user, but they often take offense at what they see as judgement of their character, which makes it difficult to have an open relationship. I hope they are appreciative of the fact that you've stayed clean in spite of their example. I know I am always happy to meet a fellow drug-free misfit.

I am also glad to meet someone with like interests! Thanks for your kind words...My parents will probably never change. I will do better though...

A few points

1.thanks Jobar for your encouraging words! I appreciate that you have noticed that I am trying to be much more civil, and hold construcive conversation...again thanks!

2. Drug use Vs. Abuse...? to me isnt even an option. I would like someone to explain to me WHY you feel the need to be in an altered state of mind. (this was my original point.)

I want each and every one of you to answer this honestly: Can you really enjoy yourself without drugs or alchohol? Why or Why not? You dont have to answer here, but be honest with yourself. If you find that you are unable to enjoy life without being sober, how are you different than fundamentalists who "need" god to get through life. You leave behind one god to join another.

I realize this may bother a lot of you, being compared to christians and all, but think about my point. as I've said before, I love being able to be really "on my own", no god, no drugs, no hopeless human attachment. Just me and those I love. That is all I need to face the day.

I love this feeling. Because I learned in 5th grade to just say no? NO! not in the least!

Because I am an individual, who saw how pot and other drugs demotivated my friends, and all but fucked up my family. Even when I was very young, I saw drugs at work, in the ritalin stoned child next to me in grade school. Just days before he had been vibrant and energetic. Now, he was tired, and mellow.

More focused? Maybe, but proably not. Just in a daze, "but at least it got him to sit still"

I hate drugs...with a passion. In the same breath however, I agree in the sense some should be legalized. Let the government make some money off of them. Let them be regulated and safe. Take the business away from the sleazy dealers that end up killing each other because they owe money to each other.

I remember this last new years...Standing around, watching people play "circle of death"
Watching them knowingly destroy the only brain cells they will ever have. I watched them "drunk dial" people they havent talked to in years.

I watched them do things they normally would not do, if they were sober. They kissed, they flirted, they left together. And one could only imagine the difference it would have made if alchahol were not present.

I met my wonderful boyfriend at a party years ago. He and I both had nothing to drink or smoke, and you know what? we hit it off perfectly.

Ask yourself this, if you are more comfortable in a social setting drinking, why is that? Are you afraid to let the "real" you out? Why cant you just drop your inhibitions and let loose?

I am infamous among my friends for being more wild than you all probably imagine. I am spontaneous, and I do things that I will look back on when I'm older and will probably shake my head and say, "stupid kid" with a smile on my face.
I dont needdrugs to be this way. I AM this way! And that, to me makes me a genuine person. What you see is what you get. Not "What you see is what you get as long as this shit hasnt worn off yet."

I realize this post may cause a lot of you again to feel like I am judging. I am not.

I am telling you about what and why I believe what I do about substance USE.

I am compelled to tell you one thing however, so that you realize that I do know the struggle of pain and depression.

I used to cut on myself a few years back, a lot. When I look back, I used to think I did for attention, but then I realized that I never did it where anyone could see. No one ever knew, except my boyfriend and my docs. I did it constantly and I still to this day have scars from it. I believe they are there for a reason. To remind me, that addictions are BAD. when you depend on something, you become weak. I want to be strong...

This was an addiction, I could not stop. I tried everything except drugs.(see my above posts for how I overcame this)
And eventually...I overcame it. With support from my loved ones, I did it. And to this day I smile and hold my head up a little higher knowing that we as humans, can overcome ANYTHING! And we should be proud of that.

I know I am...

three4jump · 03-21-2002, 08:28 PM

christ-on-a-stick, I apologize for getting overly emotional in response to your posts. Please help me understand what you are saying about use and abuse.

1. If someone uses occasionally for social enhancement without becoming addicted, that is use.

2. If someone lets their life fall into the crapper because they can't or haven't controlled their use, that is abuse.

3. Some percentage of people who set out intending to only use drugs and never become junkies end up ruining their lives anyway, and that is abuse.

4. No one can really know, when they first start taking drugs, if they will accidentally become drug abusers.

5. The ones who take drugs when they want, quit when they want, and never lose control of their lives are users, but they may have just been lucky that their chosen drug(s), their genetics, and their environment never combined to form a lethal alliance that would have triggered abuse.

Is this an adequate understanding of the distinction between use and abuse?

crab juice · 03-21-2002, 09:11 PM

Edited cuz I suck at making links.

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: crab juice ]

Queen of Swords · 03-21-2002, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by SirenSpeak:

2. Drug use Vs. Abuse...? to me isnt even an option. I would like someone to explain to me WHY you feel the need to be in an altered state of mind. (this was my original point.)

Can you define what you consider to be an "altered state of mind"?

I want each and every one of you to answer this honestly: Can you really enjoy yourself without drugs or alchohol? Why or Why not?

Can you really enjoy yourself without sugar or chocolate (they are "drugs" too, by the strictest definition of the word)? What about tea or coffee? Or aspirin? Does my Naproxen count?

I love being able to be really "on my own", no god, no drugs...

I dont needdrugs to be this way. I AM this way! And that, to me makes me a genuine person. What you see is what you get. Not "What you see is what you get as long as this shit hasnt worn off yet."

Well, this is all very good for you. As long as you realize that it does not apply to everyone else, that's cool. In a world without even prescription medication, people would go through chemotherapy without access to painkillers, or suffer so badly from schizophrenia that they couldn't function in society. But they would be drug-free - in agony, delusional, but drug-free. Hooray.

Ask yourself this, if you are more comfortable in a social setting drinking, why is that?

Because I'm too poor to afford wine. In a social setting, someone at the lab usually brings a bottle.

we as humans, can overcome ANYTHING!

Except stupidity, against which the gods themselves contend in vain.

Queen of Swords · 03-21-2002, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by three4jump:
I would be in favor of legalizing drugs IF (if, if, if...) that would realy make it safer.

I sympathize with this position. I don't believe simply legalizing every drug out there will be a good thing; I'd want a massive education campaign first.

Even if drugs were legal, I could still envision many circumstances where it would be immoral to use these legal drugs.

We're obviously working from different definitions of morality, because I don't think it would be immoral per se for a person to take drugs. Stupid, perhaps, but not immoral; it would depend on the circumstances, though.

I think it's irresponsible to encourage people to take drugs without making them aware of all the consequences.

christ-on-a-stick · 03-22-2002, 08:02 AM

three4jump,

thanks for your reply. I want to give a thoughtful response to your last post but it will probably have to wait a day or so (work/crazy b-day weekend ahead!)

Anyway didn't want to appear to be "abandoning" - I do have some more thoughts (for SirenSpeak as well) and look forward to continuing the dialogue.

Megatron · 03-22-2002, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords:
I sympathize with this position. I don't believe simply legalizing every drug out there will be a good thing; I'd want a massive education campaign first.

Nail... head... all the way through the board.

Malaclypse the Younger · 03-22-2002, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords:
I sympathize with this position. I don't believe simply legalizing every drug out there will be a good thing; I'd want a massive education campaign first.

Remember too that legalization does not entail absolute deregulation. We routinely regulate dangerous activities, especially those that pose substantial dangers to others or that pose such a danger to ones self that we lose confidence in that person's fundamental rationality.

three4jump · 03-22-2002, 09:44 AM

christ-on-a-stick, you can't reply because of WORK!?! That's the lamest excuse I've ever heard. You don't see work interfering with the prolific posts of all the other board members. Work. Pah!

Now a birthday party, that's a good excuse. Happy Birthday.

03-21-2002, 09:11 PM	#94
crab juice Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: A million miles away... Posts: 229	Edited cuz I suck at making links. [ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: crab juice ]</p>

03-21-2002, 09:20 PM	#95
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by SirenSpeak: <strong> 2. Drug use Vs. Abuse...? to me isnt even an option. I would like someone to explain to me WHY you feel the need to be in an altered state of mind. (this was my original point.)</strong> Can you define what you consider to be an "altered state of mind"? <strong>I want each and every one of you to answer this honestly: Can you really enjoy yourself without drugs or alchohol? Why or Why not?</strong> Can you really enjoy yourself without sugar or chocolate (they are "drugs" too, by the strictest definition of the word)? What about tea or coffee? Or aspirin? Does my Naproxen count? <strong>I love being able to be really "on my own", no god, no drugs... I dont needdrugs to be this way. I AM this way! And that, to me makes me a genuine person. What you see is what you get. Not "What you see is what you get as long as this shit hasnt worn off yet."</strong> Well, this is all very good for you. As long as you realize that it does not apply to everyone else, that's cool. In a world without even prescription medication, people would go through chemotherapy without access to painkillers, or suffer so badly from schizophrenia that they couldn't function in society. But they would be drug-free - in agony, delusional, but drug-free. Hooray. <strong>Ask yourself this, if you are more comfortable in a social setting drinking, why is that?</strong> Because I'm too poor to afford wine. In a social setting, someone at the lab usually brings a bottle. <strong>we as humans, can overcome ANYTHING!</strong> Except stupidity, against which the gods themselves contend in vain.

03-21-2002, 09:30 PM	#96
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by three4jump: <strong>I would be in favor of legalizing drugs IF (if, if, if...) that would realy make it safer.</strong> I sympathize with this position. I don't believe simply legalizing every drug out there will be a good thing; I'd want a massive education campaign first. <strong>Even if drugs were legal, I could still envision many circumstances where it would be immoral to use these legal drugs.</strong> We're obviously working from different definitions of morality, because I don't think it would be immoral per se for a person to take drugs. Stupid, perhaps, but not immoral; it would depend on the circumstances, though. I think it's irresponsible to encourage people to take drugs without making them aware of all the consequences.

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03-21-2002, 07:15 PM	#91
Danya Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: USA Posts: 638	three4jump, All of your points make sense. One more advantage I can see is for law enforcement, border patrols, and prisons.

03-21-2002, 08:28 PM	#93
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	christ-on-a-stick, I apologize for getting overly emotional in response to your posts. Please help me understand what you are saying about use and abuse. 1. If someone uses occasionally for social enhancement without becoming addicted, that is use. 2. If someone lets their life fall into the crapper because they can't or haven't controlled their use, that is abuse. 3. Some percentage of people who set out intending to only use drugs and never become junkies end up ruining their lives anyway, and that is abuse. 4. No one can really know, when they first start taking drugs, if they will accidentally become drug abusers. 5. The ones who take drugs when they want, quit when they want, and never lose control of their lives are users, but they may have just been lucky that their chosen drug(s), their genetics, and their environment never combined to form a lethal alliance that would have triggered abuse. Is this an adequate understanding of the distinction between use and abuse?

03-22-2002, 08:02 AM	#97
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	three4jump, thanks for your reply. I want to give a thoughtful response to your last post but it will probably have to wait a day or so (work/crazy b-day weekend ahead!) Anyway didn't want to appear to be "abandoning" - I do have some more thoughts (for SirenSpeak as well) and look forward to continuing the dialogue.

03-22-2002, 09:44 AM	#100
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	christ-on-a-stick, you can't reply because of WORK!?! That's the lamest excuse I've ever heard. You don't see work interfering with the prolific posts of all the other board members. Work. Pah! Now a birthday party, that's a good excuse. Happy Birthday.

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