Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Arken · 07-09-2003, 04:15 PM

I was given a fun book of random odds and ends and trivia called The Odd Index this afternoon. One of the sections gives brief details about these 16 and their similarities to Jesus. The compiler, Stephen P. Stignesi, admits that all of these come from The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, or Christianity Before Christ by Kersey Graves in 1875 who himself used Anacolypsis by Sir Godfrey Higgins as a source, so I'm not certain of the accuracy of these claims, and in fact I seriously doubt some, but I thought it might be a useful resource to reproduce the list here in case there is some validity. Here is the list, including similarities, as printed in The Odd Index. All emphasis, capitalization, punctuation and bolding is as printed. The one similarity these all share and that will not be printed below is that they were crucified. They are presented in order of oldest to newest approximate myth origin date and anything I add in terms of questions or criticisms will be in brackets:

1. Crishna (India) [Krishna?]

His presence on earth and his death were to atone for the sins of man.
He was crucified to appease God.
He was worshipped by his disciples as God.
He has often been depicted in drawings as having a divine halo over his head.
He has often been depicted in drawings as having a "Sacred Heart."
The cross became a religious symbol and icon [for him?] after his death.
His full name was Chrishna Zeus, which is sometimes spelled as Jeseus. [I have my doubts about this one]
He performed miracles, including healing the sick; curing lepers; restoring sight, sound and speech; raising the dead; and casting out demons.
A "divinely inspired book" (The Bhagavad-Gita) told of his coming and his miraculous works.
He was born of a virgin, and the mother and newborn child were visited by shepherds.
He spent a period of reflection in the desert.
He was baptised in the River Ganges. (Christ was baptized in the River Jordan.)
He once miraculously enabled his hungry followers to catch many nets full of fish. [Similar to the loaves and fishes miracle?]
He taught by parable and sermon.
There is similarity in the two names, Chrishna and Christ. [Only if you spell it that weird way]
The name of Chrishna's mother was Maia, which is similar to Mary.
Chrishna was born on December 25th.
He had an early adoptive father.
He proclaimed to his followers, "I am the Ressurection."
He had a last supper with his disciples before being crucified.
He was crucified around the age of 33.
He rose from the dead after three days buried.
He physically ascended into heaven.
He taught, "Seek and ye shall find."
He spoke of the "blind leading the blind."
He regarded carnal and earthly pleasures as evil. [This from the same religion which produced the Kama Sutra?]
He taught that "Faith can move mountains."
He taught his followers to love their enemies.
He prophesied his return to earth, which he called a "Second Coming."
He taught, "It is better to give than to receive."

[Don't worry, all the others are far shorter.

]

2. Sakia (Hindu)

His emblem was a cross.
One of the crimes for which he was crucified was that he illegally plucked a flower. (One of the charges against Christ was that he plucked an ear of corn on the Sabbath.)
Legend has it that he was born to atone for man's sins.
After he was crucified, Sakia was buried for three days, and then rose from the dead.
He physically ascended into heaven.
His titles included Savior of the World, and Light of the World.
His mother was known as The Holy Virgin, Queen of Heaven.
He was once tempted by the devil. [In Hinduism?!]
He healed the sick and performed miracles.
He preached "commandments" that included "Thou shalt not kill," "Thou shalt not steal," "Thou shalt not commit adultery," and "Thou shalt not lie."

3. Thamuz (Syria)

He was called The Risen Lord and The Savior.
He was crucified to atone for man's sins.
He rose from the dead after being buried.

4. Wittoba (Telingonese)

He was crucified for man's sins.
He was usually depicted in drawings as having nail holes in his hands and in the soles of his feet.
His icon was a cross.

5. Iao (Nepal)

He was known as The Savior.
He was crucified on a tree. [So not a cross like Jesus?]
He was accepted by his followers as God incarnate.
Iao (or Jao) is thought to possibly be the root of Jehovah.

6. Hesus (Celtic Druid) [This sounds suspiciously like Latin for a Celtic name]

He was crucified with a lamb on one side and an elephant on the other. [How did the druids know about elephants?] The elephant was thought to represent all the sins of the world, and so we have the "Lamb of God" dying to take away the sins of the world.

7. Quexalcote (Mexico) [Presumably the same as Quetzalcoatl]

He was crucified on a cross to atone for man's sins.
He was crucified with two thieves.
He rose from the dead after three days buried.
He was born of a virgin mother in an "immaculate conception."
He endured forty days of temptation and fasting.
He rode a donkey. [This makes me giggle for some reason]
He was purified in a temple.
He was anointed with oil.
He forgave sins.
He was baptized in water.

8. Quirinus (Rome)

He was called Savior.
He was immaculately conceived and born of a virgin.
His life was threatened by the reigning king.
He rose from the dead after being crucified and buried.
He physically ascended into heaven.

9. Prometheus (Greece)

He was nailed to a cross.
His theological precept was that of "blood atonement."
The earth shook when he died.
He was known as Our Lord and Savior.
He rose from the dead.

10. Thulis (Egypt)

He was crucified at the age of twenty-eight.
He rose from the dead after his crucifixion.
He physically ascended into heaven.
His death was supposed to benefit mankind.

11. Indra (Tibet)

He was known as God and Savior.
He was nailed to a cross.
His side was pierced.
His mother was a virgin.
He had to die to atone for man's sins.
He rose from the dead.
He physically ascended into heaven.
He could walk on water.
He knew the future.
He was believed to be eternal.

12. Alcestos (Greece)

Alcestos was the only female god who was crucified to atone for mankind's sins.
She was part of a divine trinity.

13. Atys (Phrygia)

He was believed to be the Messiah.
He was crucified to atone for man's sins.
He rose from the dead after being buried.

14. Crite (Chaldea)

He was known as The Redeemer.
He was also known as The Ever-Blessed Son of God, The Savior of the Race, and The Atoning Offering for an Angry God.
The earth is alleged to have shaken when he was crucified.

15. Bali (Orissa)

He was believed to be God as well as the Son of God.
He was crucified in atonement.
He was the second part of a divine trinity.

16. Mithra (Persia) [Zoroastrian?]

He was crucified to take away the sins of the world.
He was born on December 25th.

And that's it. Hope this will be helpful and informative to future discussions!

mark9950 · 07-09-2003, 04:27 PM

You must have forgotten jesus in these list of gods,because he came from them.

Arken · 07-09-2003, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
You must have forgotten jesus in these list of gods,because he came from them.

Um... since I said these were all Pre-Christian in the subject line, and explicitly said that these were all before Jesus in the post, I don't think I forgot Jesus in the list.

Demigawd · 07-09-2003, 05:26 PM

9. Prometheus (Greece)

He was nailed to a cross.

His theological precept was that of "blood atonement."

The earth shook when he died.

He was known as Our Lord and Savior.

He rose from the dead.

Link for this, please. My understanding of Greek mythology is that Prometheus (Forethought) and his brother (Hindsight) created humanity out of clay. He later brought fire to humans to make up for his creation's lack of natural survival traits.

Zeus punished him by chaining Prometheus to a rock at the top of a mountain, and sending an eagle to eat his liver every day. This was possible because titans and gods were immortal.

Peter Kirby · 07-09-2003, 05:30 PM

There really is nothing to talk about unless there are references to the ancient sources so that other people can verify the claims made. I mean, very few people in the world can say "I've read everything written in antiquity and know that Krishna (or Mithra, whatever) is never described in this way." When you've got a reference attached to the statement, a happy amateur like me can fetch the source from a library. But without a source, it's no better than the "Jesus is found in Roman records" kind of stuff. In a word, worthless.

best,
Peter Kirby

Magus55 · 07-09-2003, 05:45 PM

As pointed out by Demigawd, Prometheus was never nailed to a cross, afaik was never considered Lord and savior, or a blood atonement.

Prometheus was a Titan that stole fire from the Olympian Gods and gave it to humanity. Zeus punished him by chaining him to a rock where a vulture ate his liver every day, and it regrew.

If the book you got that info from completely botches the mythological account of Prometheus, why should we accept any of the other claims?

my dog earl · 07-09-2003, 06:01 PM

If the book you got that info from completely botches the mythological account of Prometheus, why should we accept any of the other claims?

Does anyone else see the complete irony of this statement?

WinAce · 07-09-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
If the book you got that info from completely botches the ... account... why should we accept any of the other claims?

*raspy Darth Vader voice* The irony is strong with this one...

PandaJoe · 07-09-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
If the book you got that info from completely botches the mythological account of Prometheus, why should we accept any of the other claims?

I think this logic has some consequences that Magus isn't going to like...

EDIT- And I'm sure we all thought we'd be the first to post that.

Toto · 07-09-2003, 06:15 PM

The Internet Infidels library has a copy of Kelsey Graves' 16 Crucified Saviors, with this warning label:

Quote:

Note: the scholarship of Kersey Graves has been questioned by numerous freethinkers; the inclusion of The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors in the Secular Web's Historical Library does not constitute endorsement by Internet Infidels, Inc. This document was included for historical purposes; readers should be extremely cautious in trusting anything in this book.

Readers periodically write in to the feedback forum about this work. This thread contains a post from Richard Carrier (mostly from here:

Quote:

The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors: Or Christianity Before Christ. It is unreliable, but no comprehensive critique exists. Most scholars immediately recognize many of his findings as unsupported and dismiss him as useless. After all, a scholar who never cites a source isn't useful to have as a reference even if he is right. For examples of specific problems, however, see Hare Jesus: Christianity's Hindu Heritage, and some generally poor but not always incorrect Christian rebuttals. In general, even when the evidence is real, as I've already noted it often only appears many years after Christianity began, and thus might be evidence of diffusion in the other direction. Another typical problem is that Graves draws far too much from what often amounts to rather vague evidence.

An example is something written by the first philosophical defender of Christianity, Justin Martyr, who wrote around 160 A.D. These passages show the sort of stories that even Christians acknowledged as predating their own, and you can see how Graves sometimes embellishes and goes a bit too far with this kind of evidence--and there is no better evidence before the 3rd century, when Christian ideas were already affecting pagan thought. However, you will see here that there is a small kernel of truth in what Graves argues, but since he rarely cites sources and engages in almost no critical examination of texts we can't tell when he is right or wrong and that makes him useless to scholars. Justin wrote in his Dialogue of Justin and Trypho (the Jew) (69-70):

Be well assured, then, Trypho, that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false prophets in Elijahs days. For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that the devil has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and traveled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, 'strong as a giant to run his race,' has been in like manner imitated? And when the devil brings forward Asclepius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ? . . .
. . . And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, and call the place where those who believe in him are initiated a cave, do I not perceive here that the utterance of Daniel, that a stone without hands was cut out of a great mountain, has been imitated by them, and that they have attempted likewise to imitate the whole of Isaiahs words?"

Although I have not exhaustively investigated this matter, I have confirmed only two real "resurrected" deities with some uncanny similarity to Jesus which are actually reported before Christian times (Zalmoxis and Inanna, mentioned above), neither of which is mentioned by Graves or John G. Jackson (another Gravesian author--though both mention Tammuz, for whom Inanna was mistaken in their day). This is apart from the obvious pre-Christian myths of Demeter, Dionysos, Persephone, Castor and Pollux, Isis and Osiris, and Cybele and Attis, which do indeed carry a theme of metaphorical resurrection, usually in the terms of a return or escape from the Underworld, explaining the shifting seasons. But these myths are not quite the same thing as a pre-Christian passion story. It only goes to show the pervasiveness in antiquity of an agricultural resurrection theme, and the Jesus story has more to it than that, although the cultural influence can certainly be acknowledged.

The only pre-Christian man to be buried and resurrected and deified in his own lifetime, that I know of, is the Thracian god Zalmoxis (also called Salmoxis or Gebele'izis), who is described in the mid-5th-century B.C.E. by Herodotus (4.94-96), and also mentioned in Plato's Charmides (156d-158b) in the early-4th-century B.C.E. According to the hostile account of Greek informants, Zalmoxis buried himself alive, telling his followers he would be resurrected in three years, but he merely resided in a hidden dwelling all that time. His inevitable "resurrection" led to his deification, and a religion surrounding him, which preached heavenly immortality for believers, persisted for centuries.

The only case, that I know, of a pre-Christian god actually being crucified and then resurrected is Innana (also known as Ishtar), a Sumerian goddess whose crucifixion, resurrection and escape from the underworld is told in cuneiform tablets inscribed c. 1500 B.C.E., attesting to a very old tradition. The best account and translation of the text is to be found in Samuel Kramer's History Begins at Sumer, pp. 154 ff., but be sure to use the third revised edition (1981), since the text was significantly revised after new discoveries were made. For instance, the tablet was once believed to describe the resurrection of Innana's lover, Tammuz (also known as Dumuzi). Graves thus mistakenly lists Tammuz as one of his "Sixteen Crucified Saviors." Of course, Graves cannot be discredited for this particular error, since in his day scholars still thought the tablet referred to that god (Kramer explains how this mistake happened).

07-09-2003, 04:15 PM	#1
Arken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 6,303	16 Crucified Pre-Christian Deities I was given a fun book of random odds and ends and trivia called The Odd Index this afternoon. One of the sections gives brief details about these 16 and their similarities to Jesus. The compiler, Stephen P. Stignesi, admits that all of these come from The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, or Christianity Before Christ by Kersey Graves in 1875 who himself used Anacolypsis by Sir Godfrey Higgins as a source, so I'm not certain of the accuracy of these claims, and in fact I seriously doubt some, but I thought it might be a useful resource to reproduce the list here in case there is some validity. Here is the list, including similarities, as printed in The Odd Index. All emphasis, capitalization, punctuation and bolding is as printed. The one similarity these all share and that will not be printed below is that they were crucified. They are presented in order of oldest to newest approximate myth origin date and anything I add in terms of questions or criticisms will be in brackets: 1. Crishna (India) [Krishna?] His presence on earth and his death were to atone for the sins of man. He was crucified to appease God. He was worshipped by his disciples as God. He has often been depicted in drawings as having a divine halo over his head. He has often been depicted in drawings as having a "Sacred Heart." The cross became a religious symbol and icon [for him?] after his death. His full name was Chrishna Zeus, which is sometimes spelled as Jeseus. [I have my doubts about this one] He performed miracles, including healing the sick; curing lepers; restoring sight, sound and speech; raising the dead; and casting out demons. A "divinely inspired book" (The Bhagavad-Gita) told of his coming and his miraculous works. He was born of a virgin, and the mother and newborn child were visited by shepherds. He spent a period of reflection in the desert. He was baptised in the River Ganges. (Christ was baptized in the River Jordan.) He once miraculously enabled his hungry followers to catch many nets full of fish. [Similar to the loaves and fishes miracle?] He taught by parable and sermon. There is similarity in the two names, Chrishna and Christ. [Only if you spell it that weird way] The name of Chrishna's mother was Maia, which is similar to Mary. Chrishna was born on December 25th. He had an early adoptive father. He proclaimed to his followers, "I am the Ressurection." He had a last supper with his disciples before being crucified. He was crucified around the age of 33. He rose from the dead after three days buried. He physically ascended into heaven. He taught, "Seek and ye shall find." He spoke of the "blind leading the blind." He regarded carnal and earthly pleasures as evil. [This from the same religion which produced the Kama Sutra?] He taught that "Faith can move mountains." He taught his followers to love their enemies. He prophesied his return to earth, which he called a "Second Coming." He taught, "It is better to give than to receive." [Don't worry, all the others are far shorter. ] *2. Sakia (Hindu)* His emblem was a cross. One of the crimes for which he was crucified was that he illegally plucked a flower. (One of the charges against Christ was that he plucked an ear of corn on the Sabbath.) Legend has it that he was born to atone for man's sins. After he was crucified, Sakia was buried for three days, and then rose from the dead. He physically ascended into heaven. His titles included Savior of the World, and Light of the World. His mother was known as The Holy Virgin, Queen of Heaven. He was once tempted by the devil. [In Hinduism?!] He healed the sick and performed miracles. He preached "commandments" that included "Thou shalt not kill," "Thou shalt not steal," "Thou shalt not commit adultery," and "Thou shalt not lie." *3. Thamuz (Syria)* He was called The Risen Lord and The Savior. He was crucified to atone for man's sins. He rose from the dead after being buried. *4. Wittoba (Telingonese)* He was crucified for man's sins. He was usually depicted in drawings as having nail holes in his hands and in the soles of his feet. His icon was a cross. *5. Iao (Nepal)* He was known as The Savior. He was crucified on a tree. [So not a cross like Jesus?] He was accepted by his followers as God incarnate. Iao (or Jao) is thought to possibly be the root of Jehovah. *6. Hesus (Celtic Druid)* [This sounds suspiciously like Latin for a Celtic name] He was crucified with a lamb on one side and an elephant on the other. [How did the druids know about elephants?] The elephant was thought to represent all the sins of the world, and so we have the "Lamb of God" dying to take away the sins of the world. *7. Quexalcote (Mexico)* [Presumably the same as Quetzalcoatl] He was crucified on a cross to atone for man's sins. He was crucified with two thieves. He rose from the dead after three days buried. He was born of a virgin mother in an "immaculate conception." He endured forty days of temptation and fasting. He rode a donkey. [This makes me giggle for some reason] He was purified in a temple. He was anointed with oil. He forgave sins. He was baptized in water. *8. Quirinus (Rome)* He was called Savior. He was immaculately conceived and born of a virgin. His life was threatened by the reigning king. He rose from the dead after being crucified and buried. He physically ascended into heaven. *9. Prometheus (Greece)* He was nailed to a cross. His theological precept was that of "blood atonement." The earth shook when he died. He was known as Our Lord and Savior. He rose from the dead. *10. Thulis (Egypt)* He was crucified at the age of twenty-eight. He rose from the dead after his crucifixion. He physically ascended into heaven. His death was supposed to benefit mankind. *11. Indra (Tibet)* He was known as God and Savior. He was nailed to a cross. His side was pierced. His mother was a virgin. He had to die to atone for man's sins. He rose from the dead. He physically ascended into heaven. He could walk on water. He knew the future. He was believed to be eternal. *12. Alcestos (Greece)* Alcestos was the only female god who was crucified to atone for mankind's sins. She was part of a divine trinity. *13. Atys (Phrygia)* He was believed to be the Messiah. He was crucified to atone for man's sins. He rose from the dead after being buried. *14. Crite (Chaldea)* He was known as The Redeemer. He was also known as The Ever-Blessed Son of God, The Savior of the Race, and The Atoning Offering for an Angry God. The earth is alleged to have shaken when he was crucified. *15. Bali (Orissa)* He was believed to be God as well as the Son of God. He was crucified in atonement. He was the second part of a divine trinity. *16. Mithra (Persia)* [Zoroastrian?] He was crucified to take away the sins of the world. He was born on December 25th. And that's it. Hope this will be helpful and informative to future discussions!

07-09-2003, 04:27 PM	#2
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	Sounds like You must have forgotten jesus in these list of gods,because he came from them.

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07-09-2003, 05:26 PM	#4
Demigawd Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place Posts: 2,254	9. Prometheus (Greece) He was nailed to a cross. His theological precept was that of "blood atonement." The earth shook when he died. He was known as Our Lord and Savior. He rose from the dead. Link for this, please. My understanding of Greek mythology is that Prometheus (Forethought) and his brother (Hindsight) created humanity out of clay. He later brought fire to humans to make up for his creation's lack of natural survival traits. Zeus punished him by chaining Prometheus to a rock at the top of a mountain, and sending an eagle to eat his liver every day. This was possible because titans and gods were immortal.

07-09-2003, 05:30 PM	#5
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	There really is nothing to talk about unless there are references to the ancient sources so that other people can verify the claims made. I mean, very few people in the world can say "I've read everything written in antiquity and know that Krishna (or Mithra, whatever) is never described in this way." When you've got a reference attached to the statement, a happy amateur like me can fetch the source from a library. But without a source, it's no better than the "Jesus is found in Roman records" kind of stuff. In a word, worthless. best, Peter Kirby

07-09-2003, 05:45 PM	#6
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	As pointed out by Demigawd, Prometheus was never nailed to a cross, afaik was never considered Lord and savior, or a blood atonement. Prometheus was a Titan that stole fire from the Olympian Gods and gave it to humanity. Zeus punished him by chaining him to a rock where a vulture ate his liver every day, and it regrew. If the book you got that info from completely botches the mythological account of Prometheus, why should we accept any of the other claims?

07-09-2003, 06:01 PM	#7
my dog earl Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 149	If the book you got that info from completely botches the mythological account of Prometheus, why should we accept any of the other claims? Does anyone else see the complete irony of this statement?

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