Radorth

You cannot understand the NT until you decide wisdom involves much paradox. That is the value of Zen in the search for a complete philosophy, as M. Scott Peck has also said. We know people are simply choosing to ignore paradoxes by their simplistic, lazy, rhetorical questions when confronted with one.

Rad

hinduwoman

But the Mafia don in Christianity is not dying, Radorth. He is immortal by his very nature, so where is the sacrifice?

Secondly, even a mafia don can forgive a loan. All he has to say is "OK you don't have to pay it back". He does not have to kill his son to write off a debt to himself. But apparently God does not have that power?

You might not have heard of anyone dying specifically for your sins, but in Jewish tradition that is what the scapegoat did --- it carried off the sins of the entire community. So all the NT writers had to do is to transfer the notion to a human figure.

God makes the rules arbitrarily and enforces them, without consulting any human being. This might be a true picture of God, but it is not a God of love and mercy or justice, unless these words are used in a special sense., in which case they become irrelevant for human beings.

hinduwoman

Spurly, I understand what you are saying, but the moral problem remains. Why is the killing of an innocent person in place of the guilty justice? As for the sacrifice of animals, it is even worse, because they are even unable to understand what sin or God is.

You will be interested to know this very problem was the centre of intense debates between pundits and priests. To a Hindu this was a great scandal, since it directly contradicted karma.

Radorth

Not in your case, no. 19 year old's typically think they understand when they haven't a clue, number one. Number two, almost everybody learns something with time, as even Mark Twain had to do, admitting that when he spoke to his father at age 26, "I was amazed at how much the old man had learned." 19 year olds can typically only see in others what is in themselves, which ain't much except in the rarest of cases.

But I'm absolutely sure you consider yourself among the latter. Am I right about that?

Rad

winstonjen

Unjustified assumption. That is just your stereotype. I am always willing to consider facts and opinions, but reason is much more persuasive to me.

Radorth, you need to understand that to persuade non-Christians, you need to persuade them on a basis other than your religion. Don't always assume that what you believe about blood being required for forgiveness will be accepted by the other party.

As several posters have demonstrated, Jesus can forgive WITHOUT having to sacrifice himself. Therefore, when he DID sacrifice himself, he did it FOR HIMSELF.

Is there anything wrong with considering myself among the latter if I really am among the latter?

Time isn't the only basis for learning. One has to be WILLING to learn. Age by itself has no bearing on it.

Radorth

OK let's think about that. That's like saying "go kill and murder anyboy you want. Gas 6 million Jews. All is forgiven."

There is no justice there, and you, claiming you take responsiblity for all your sins would scream like a gutshot banshee about Hitler getting off with a slap on the wrist, wouldn't you? We've heard atheists complain again and again about how unfair it is with a substitutionary sacrifice. You can't have it both ways and that is what is so silly about the typical atheist's position. Where is the justice in requiring nothing at all?

No, justice requires that we admit we are sinners all, not particularly more or less holy than another, and put ourselves at the mercy of the one who can make up the difference, and I might say will bend over backwards to do so. Repentance makes all the difference to God. At least then there is some HOPE of salvation. God asks so little, yet he must have some way to claim that a debt is paid. He accepts mere faith in exchange for justification, for he well knows that is about all we have. A person who finally calls Jesus "Lord" can be saved, even the thief next to Jesus, at the end. Faith was all he had, and God called it enough. Only Christianity offers such salvation by grace through faith, and we need it no less than that thief, and we have little more to offer.

Also, what so few people (even Christians) grasp is the need for imputed righteousness. It gives God the power and authority to save a person and make them equally as deserving as another who has had many personal advantages if God so chooses. And as far as I am concerned, God only saves people who thirst for righteousness, not those who think they have some. He ain't impressed. Sorry.

The raw truth is that the holier you think you are, the less you can appreciate the cross, and the more unjust, unmerciful and self-righteous you likely are.

Rad

Yellum Notnef

When I was younger I used to think that older people were always wiser than younger people just because they were older.
This changed one day after watching my 60 year old uncle sand pine boards all afternoon with an orbital sander without a sanding disk.

Now I`m postive that wisdom comes from experience. You get certain wisdom from certain experiences and since nobody here has the experience of any biblical events,nobody here can use wisdom as a trump card.

winstonjen

I don't think that atheists believe that going to heaven should come with 'nothing at all'. By comparison, admitting our sins is next to nothing, compared with the human justice system.

Forgiveness should be up to the victim to forgive, not a god who is far removed from the problem. If god asked so little, couldn't he get people to repent and believe in him without resorting to afterlife blackmail?

When I forgive other humans, for example, I do not go and slaughter my son (if I had one) or an innocent bystander to appease MY OWN "JUSTICE", which is what your god has done. If you have any points that refute it, feel free to do so. Quote the bible if need be.

So, in other words, people need to submit to your illogical, irrational and unjust religion to have any decent sense of morality. That is plainly ridiculous and unjustified. I don't need a god or religion to want to care about those around me, and about humanity as a whole.

Radorth

That's what at least three of them have asserted here, and you below.

And that system, of course, is somebody else's fault. Right? No, admitting our sins alone will bring justice. Nothing else has worked. Read a history book. All wars are self-righteousness wars.

Another inane, rhetorical question to the local idiot. I thought we talked about those. People who know God don't think he's far removed. He's only as removed as you put him, but them I'm just another of a billion idiots. I find him breathing down my neck most of the time, with discipline and grace. He has a long memory until we face our own crap. Then it becomes surprisingly short.

Well yeah, he could work miracles for you but you could end up whining and making idols like the Israelites did. He tried that already. It makes no difference in one's character. Character comes from hard knocks orchestrated by God, and the examples set for us. Good luck.

That's not what I said, but like I said, you still have no idea how I think. In fact I said something almost the opposite. Try reading my posts from left to right. Oh sorry. There's a small paradox, so you probably won't get it.

An assertion we should take by what, faith? How typical of the self-righteous humanist. Stalin probably said the same thing. It means nothing. And tell us, what do you have that you did not recieve? Thanks, but unlike you and Muhammed, Jesus backed all his up by example, so I have far more reason to trust him, wouldn't you say?

Rad

Llyricist

stop baiting please.

It's a shame you feel you have to externalize your very own conscience to take it seriously. And then imagine it needs a blood sacrifice to atone for your imperfect nature.

How typical of a self-righteous Christian to equate anything atheist to Stalin (who LED a religion where the State was God) or Hitler (who was most definitely NOT atheist, maybe not exactly Christian as you would have it, but not atheist either).


What do you mean by this?? From God??? from other people??? from his DNA???