Cipher Girl

It's bothered me for some time, that whenever a debate starts on the nature of god, those who propose such a god never seem to get around to describing said deity. They expect a person to believe in their deity even though they themselves don't seem to have any idea of the nature of this deity.

Especially when pressed for a description of god, the usual responses are:
1) Its a mystery.
2) God is some combination of uber powers, etc, and then proceed to change the definitions of said powers in the course of debate.
3) Remain vague and try to redirect the course of the debate.
4) Claim god is supernatural and does not exist in the universe.
5) Claim god is described in holy literature, then proceed to ignore the problems with this explaintion.

I'm sure there are many other examples, but these seem to be the most common that I've run into. My questions are however, "Theists, how can you expect me to believe such an entity exists, when you can't adequately describe the deity you believe in?" and " How can I possibly get an idea of what you are talking about, if you can't explain it clearly to me?"

Darkblade

I concur.

David-Unfamous

Very true

Darkblade

I concur.

annelise

I was basically attacked yesterday because I did not believe in an afterlife or that the body contained a spirit. I am proud of myself for standing my ground.

trillian

Whether they would care to admit it, I'd bet that most Xns think of their God as a Father figure male, in his 70's with a white beard and flowing white garments.
They can't help it. He's never portrayed any other way.

This is the personal "God" they speak to and invoke to help them who is actually just a reflection of their own image of what they think such a god would advise them to do. It's OK by me as long as they don't actually read and understand the Bible and become god-sanctioned racist sexist murderers.

Darkblade

Change his age to at least 6000......and make him senile...

Eric H

Hello Cipher girl.

There is a way to search for the nature of God,

First of all if there is a God worth following, then he must represent the greatest good in all things. This definition of greatest good can be worked out using reason.


There is a way to search for a greatest purpose for the creation of the universe and life by finding answers to three questions.

Only search for the greatest meaning and the greatest purpose as you read this.

1..What greatest purpose can God have to create children in his own image?

From humanities point of view what would be the greatest reason to be created by a God?

Would God want to create life that would need to be forgiven and shown mercy?
Would he want to create life so that it would conform to his way of doing things?
Would it give him pleasure, to sit back and look at the wonderful universe and life he has created?

The greatest reason God can have to create children is love.
Therefore the ultimate God humanity can have is a God who loves in the greatest way.

There must be a God who willingly loves all of mankind as he loves HIMSELF, for all time and unconditionally.

This is the greatest reason to create children.

2.. To find a greatest purpose for all God’s children.

What greatest purpose could God set for humanity? Would it be for everyone to turn to His kind of religion and pray the way that he stipulates, or would it be to banish poverty, gain intellectual superiority, conquer sickness and death, and conquer the universe or is there more?

If the greatest reason God can have to create mankind, is to love each and everyone of us, as he loves himself, then God must create mankind, with the freedom to return God’s love

All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love God the creator unconditionally.

God willingly loves everyone as he loves himself; we also need this same freedom to love everyone in the same way, so that the truth can be complete for God and mankind.

All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love all of God’s children (neighbours) as they love themselves, unconditionally.

Christ loves the father as he loves himself.
The Father loves Christ as he loves himself.
Is this how Christ is one with the father?
Is this how Christ wants us to be one? He wants us to love each other as we love ourselves.

God loves all of mankind as he loves himself.
Would this be the greatest love that he can have for each one of us?

This is the same language used in the greatest commandments.
Can it be that the language used in the greatest commandments applied to God and Christ first?
If we were created in the image of God, would it make more sense if humanities greatest purpose hangs on the greatest purpose for God?

3.. What greatest thing can God create?

God could create all the stars and planets of the universe; he would then become God the builder.
God could create a whole variety of life with almost no intelligence like plants; he now become God the gardener’
God could create life with more intelligence to hunt for food, look for shelter, mate, and breed a future generation. If the knowledge and intelligence is limited he has now created the animal kingdom. He now becomes God the farmer, a pet owner; their behavior should not cause him too much trouble
God could create life with a progressive way of gaining knowledge and intelligence. God could create life in his own image, a life that could understand him. Creating life in his own image is the greatest form of creation open to him. He now becomes God the Father; his children must be real children to him. He can create nothing greater because he cannot create anything greater than himself.

We can marvel at the great attention to detail that is evident in everything from the tiniest single cell of life right up to the giant structures of galaxies.

Can you find any greater purpose for all this to exist by challenging the above statements in your mind in an honest way, test them against any religious beliefs, test them against any form of logic.
Did God have the ability to keep sin and evil from man? If the answer is yes, then we can conclude that He had a purpose great enough to allow evil and sin to exist.
Is the freedom to love in this way a purpose great enough to allow evil to exist? Can there be any greater purpose for God to create life? Can there be any greater purpose for humanity to exist? In human terms could this be the ultimate truth, the ultimate purpose for the existence of the universe and life.

Is the nature of God to love in the greatest way?

Is this the God of my imagination, because it is not the way any religion seems to portray God?

There is a way to look at a tiny passage in the bible that makes me think there can be truth in this.


Peace

Eric

Aquila ka Hecate

OK, call me cynical, but I reached this point and knew what was coming.

Is it the language they use which alerts my underutilised subconcious and warns me to expect a less-than-rational rant?

Or am I indeed psychic?

Truly, Cipher Girl, I also note the lack of coherence in most theist's meant-to-be-convincing 'witness'.

They manage to convey that warm, fuzzy feeling alright, but not much sense...and they generally take a long post to do so in.

All of which makes me wonder whether one day I'll just lose it and lash out at the nearest 'witness'-er with a steak knife.

Psychic

Convince a young boy with Down's syndrome, or a young girl with a malformed face, or congenital blindness that god loves her/him?

If you love someone would you creat him with one eye and creat all others with two? what would he feel?
If you are a father, would you give your youngest son the car and the house while depriving you other children from everything? and then ask them all to love you just the same? and then threatens them that if they don't all love you and respect your rules you would throw them into the street.
that's not exactly what I call love!

If we are created because he loves us? then I would LOVE now to have not existed from the begining! that's my will! forced to live this life of misery in the name of LOVE!


as we come to understand the details of the complex universe it has lost its mysteries, there are a few unsolved mysteries until this moments, but noticing the trends of science in the last century you can know that more and more will be known about every little detail in the universe.
anyway, the complexity of the univerese is not astounishing anymore. and you can find chaos more than you can imagine.
read the blind watch maker by Richard dawkins.


I wonder on what basis you give description of this god? do you have a single proof? can you assertively exclude that god for example created the univerese, created a nice tree and a nice guitar, and relxed playing his guitar? and since you have entered the widest door of the metaphysics, can you exclude that we are living in "the matrix"?
you picture of god has no supporting evidence outside your own personal imagination. to convince me of a good, I would propose giving a more solid, eviedence-based definition of a god.

sorry for if there are any offenses.