Starspun

<a href="http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html" target="_blank">http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html</a>


This is in regards to a fundie my wife works with.

He sent an email pointing to this thread as his proof that we are a christian nation.
I need insight folks.
I realize this exhibite is 'spun' to make it seem like he is in fact correct, but, how do I word a refutation??

PS-to prove how much of a jackass this guy is, I will use an example of his fundamental belief on pregnancy:
In his own words he admitted that the ONLY reason that women have a hard time with labor is due to the sin of Eve.
It's this mentallity that makes my wife and I really want to shake his foundations.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Starspun ]</p>

Toto

Buffman did an extensive analysis of that exhibit when it came out. You can find some useful links in this closed thread on the topic:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000319&p=" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000319&p=</a>

There are 2 links in that thread that are broken. You can find them here:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000118" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000118</a>

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000122" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000122</a>

(you can fix old broken links by substituting "iidb.org/cgi-bin/"

for

"www.infidels.org/electronic/forum/ubbcgi"

without the quote marks.)

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

Radcliffe Emerson

The US was founded upon the principles of everyone worshipping A god the way they chose, not everyone being Christian. I can't believe people like this garbling their facts, or not knowing them.
Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were both expressly against founding the nation as a Christian nation. The words 'creator' or 'God' may be in the founding documents, but 'Christ, Christian, and Jesus' are not.

Radcliffe Emerson

1st ammendment, no mention of Christianity.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Radcliffe Emerson

I just went out to the government archives site and also looked at the Declaration of Independence. While God is mentioned, there is no mention at all of Christ or Christianity.

Buffman

Toto

Thank you for the great references that I might never have found again without considerable time and effort.

Starspun

If you care to research this issue further, check my posted biography e-mail address, drop me a line with your address and I will attempt to send you an e-mail copy of my entire LoC Essay...if you wish. It is about 55 pages that I send in two parts. It is also available in the Bank of Wisdom CD, America Series, "The Writings of Thomas Jefferson", produced by Mr. Emmett Fields. He kindly included my Essay in the personal opinions section that he adds to many of his CDs.

<a href="http://www.bank-of-wisdom.com/" target="_blank">http://www.bank-of-wisdom.com/</a>

Starspun

Thanks Buffman, I will take you up on that offer.

New update on this issue:
Here is the letter we came up with refuting his claims. Although, with that link he emailed, I dont know how he will look at our arguements. I guess I will find out when the wife gets home.
(I would like to add we used some phrases from the web and here. I apologoze for not getting permission to copy works, but, it is for a great cause, and it wil not be reproduced for profit. Just for this asshole:

Name withheld,

I never disputed the fact that the founding fathers were religious. That would be absurd considering the reason they succeeded from England was for religious freedom. I did however, refute your claim that the founding fathers were all Christian, therefore, insinuating the US is a Christian Nation. That statement in it's entirety is false. Although I could solely rely on your link to the Library of Congress to refute that claim, I will add a few others that strengthen my position.

First, let's look to the Treaty of Tripoli. It was written on May 29, 1797, 10 years after the ratification of the Constitution, during Washington's term as President. It was presented to the Senate by President John Quincy Adams, read aloud on the senate floor and passed UNANIMOUSLY.

Excerpt from the Treaty of Tripoli:
Article. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Here is what the Constitution has to say regarding the validity of treaties:
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
(Article VI, Section II, United States Constitution)
In addition to the Treaty of Tripoli, here are quotes from some of our most influential founding fathers.
Thomas Jefferson:
---In his “Notes on the State of Virginia,” Jefferson wrote, “Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.”
Jefferson and the other founding fathers witnessed the religious conflicts that enveloped Europe for centuries. They desired to make the blossoming young American nation free from religious dogma, especially the intrusive elements of Christianity.
A note from Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, September 26, 1814:
"...our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to our god alone. I enquire after no man's and trouble none with mine; nor is it given to us in this life to know whether yours or mine, our friend's or our foe's, are exactly the right."
Thomas Paine had great influence on the philosophy of the constitution with his essay titled 'Common Sense'.
"The Calvinist, who damns children of a span long to hell to burn forever for the glory of God (and this is called Christianity), and the Universalist who preaches that all shall be saved and none shall be damned (and this also is called Christianity), boasts alike of their holy [reveled] religion and their Christian faith."
From Thomas Paine's essay entitled, OF THE RELIGION OF DEISM COMPARED WITH THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION
"But when the divine gift of reason begins to expand itself in the mind and calls man to reflection, he then reads and contemplates God and His works, and not in the books pretending to be revelation. The creation is the Bible of the true believer in God. Everything in this vast volume inspires him with sublime ideas of the Creator. The little and paltry, and often obscene, tales of the Bible sink into wretchedness when put in comparison with this mighty work...
...Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests.
It honors reason as the choicest gift of God to man, and the faculty by which he is enabled to contemplate the power, wisdom and goodness of the Creator displayed in the creation; and reposing itself on His protection, both here and hereafter, it avoids all presumptuous beliefs, and rejects, as the fabulous inventions of men, all books pretending to revelation."
--George Washington and deism:
Washington, like many people in colonial America, belonged to the Anglican church and was a vestryman in it. But in early America, particularly in pre-revolutionary America, you had to belong to the dominant church if you wanted to have influence in society, as is illustrated by the following taken from Old Chruches, Ministers and Families of Virginia, by Bishop William Meade, I, p 191. "Even Mr. Jefferson, and George Wythe, who did not conceal their disbelief in Christianity, took their parts in the duties of vestrymen, the one at Williamsburg, the other at Albermarle; for they wished to be men of influence."
Preacher Weems has written that on Washington's death bed, "Washington folded his arms decently on his breast, then breathing out 'Father of mercies, take me to thyself,' - he fell asleep." Like almost all of what the Christian fundamentalists have written about Washington, this is not true.
Tobias Lear, Washington's secretary, was with him when he died. The following is his account of Washington's death.

"About ten o'clk he made several attempts to speak to me before he could effect it, at length he said, -'I am just going. Have me decently buried; and do not let my body be put into the vault in less than three days after I am dead.' I bowed assent, for I could not speak. He then looked at me again and said, 'Do you understand me?' I replied, 'Yes.' 'Tis well,' said he.
"About ten minutes before he expired (which was between ten and eleven o'clk) his breathing became easier; he lay quietly; - he withdrew his hand from mine, and felt his own pulse. I saw his countenance change. I spoke to Dr. Craik who sat by the fire; - he came to the bed side. The General's hand fell from his wrist - I took it in mine and put it into my bosom. Dr. Craik put his hands over his eyes and he expired without a struggle or a sigh!"
A quote from Benjamin Franklin:
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
The state should play no role in restricting or expanding any belief in a deity.
While many Christians no doubt lived in the Americas at the time of our nation’s birth, many of the most prominent founding fathers professed absolutely no faith in the Christian god. Living during the height of the Enlightenment, many of the intellectuals of the late 18th century disassociated themselves from their Christian roots and adopted a new ethos. John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and Benjamin Franklin all adhered to a Deist philosophy. George Washington most likely adhered to a Deist philosophy as well, for he refused to publicly profess his faith and further refused to publicly pray.
You also mentioned that every religion believes in god. Although they believe in a higher power, they do not believe in the Abrahamic version of god. More over, some religions are not even monotheistic. Here are a few examples:
Hinduism-The canon of Hinduism is basically defined by what people do rather than what they think. Most Hindus worship Shiva, Vishnu or the Goddess (Devi), but they also worship hundreds of additional minor deities. Consequently, far more uniformity of behavior than of belief is found among Hindus, although very few practices or beliefs are shared by all. A few usages are observed by almost all Hindus: reverence for Brahmans and cows; abstention from meat (especially beef); and marriage within the caste.
Buddhism-Since earliest times a common expression of faith for laity and members of the sangha alike has been taking the Three Refuges, that is, reciting the formula "I take refuge in the Buddha. I take refuge in the dharma. I take refuge in the sangha."
Islam-The self-perceived mission of Islam has been to restore what Muslims believe is the original monotheistic teaching and to supplant the older legal codes of the Hebrew and Christian traditions with a newer Islamic code of law that corresponds to the evolving conditions of human societies. Thus, for example, Islamic traditions maintain that Jesus was a prophet whose revealed book was the Christian New Testament, and that later Christians distorted the original scripture and inserted into it the claim that Jesus was the son of God. (this will fire his ass up.)
Deism-One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason." This common sense approach to God and a spiritual philosophy can not only bring a lasting profound sense of peace and happiness to the individual, but it also has the potential to go light years in eradicating religious fear, superstition and violence.

Now, let's put Christianity in perspective with the other leading religions in the world. Here are the top 5 belief systems according to Encarta Encyclopedia:
Christianity: 2 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
Buddhism: 360 million


You also mentioned that they never intended a separation of church and state. I am not sure where you got that idea, but let us review the 1st Amendment.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Although many people, including yourself, attempt to speculate what the founding fathers intentions were, there is really no need for speculation. The following should clear up any misinterpretations:
In a letter written to President Thomas Jefferson dated October 7, 1801, the Danbury Baptist Church specifically asks Mr. Jefferson to clarify the First Amendment. He responds:
...Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties....

In addition, the Supreme Court has used Thomas Jefferson's quote as proof that the founding fathers intended for there to be a separation of church and state. Here are specific instances:

Quoting Thomas Jefferson, the Supreme Court has stated that the Establishment Clause was intended to accomplish this end by erecting a "wall of separation between Church and State." Everson v. Board of Educ. of Ewing, 330 U.S. 1, 15-16 (1947).
also:
"[T]he individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all"); County of Allegheny v. ACLU Greater Pittsburgh Chapter, 492 U.S. 573, 589-94, 598-602 (1989); Texas Monthly, Inc. v. Bullock, 489 U.S. 1, 17 (1989); Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488, 495 (1961).
I believe that it is apparent that the founding fathers insisted on a firm adherence to the establishment clause. They wished for this nation to remain a secular nation. Only then could it flourish away from the dogma and superstitions of the European theocracies.

Let us finally return to the original topic of our discussion. On June 26 a federal court found that the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance represent an endorsement of religious belief, and therefore violate the Establishment clause of the Constitution. The original Pledge, written by Francis Bellamy both a minister and a socialist in 1892, didn't contain those words. They were added in 1954, during the McCarthy era. The reasoning was that since most communists were also atheists, "under God" would demonstrate that America didn't support communism. But not all communists are atheists and, more importantly, not all Americans are monotheists. We are a nation of Christians, Muslims, and Jews, but we are also a nation of Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and many others. "Under God" doesn't belong in our Pledge any more than it did when first written. The original Pledge was recited by soldiers, schoolchildren, and citizens of all backgrounds and beliefs and served us through two world wars and several national crises. In this time of increasing diversity we should be seeking unity, not division. Americans of all religious convictions, and those with none, should be able to pledge their allegiance to this great nation without having to abandon their First Amendment rights. The McCarthy-era additions should be removed and America should get its original Pledge back. A Pledge every American, regardless of religion, can say with pride and integrity.

Starspun

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />
This is Starspun's lady, home from work with a slight headache from banging my head on a brick wall. haha
It turned out just the way that I imagined. I happened to be walking past his office as he was reading the letter. He had only gotten to the section on the Treaty of Tripoli at this point. I walked past his office to an adjoining one, I could hear him yelling at the top of his lungs to another person in his office that all of the f***ing athiests and agnostics need to get the F*** OUT! I went into his office and the yelling match started. He wanted to know, "What in the **** is this Treaty of Tripoli sh*t? And who the hell wrote it?" I told him that the authors were irrelevant since the US Senate had passed it unanimously. He then said so what? I said, "So what?! Do you know what the Constitution says about treaties? They are considered the supreme law of the land." He just kept yelling that it was bullsh*t and that he didn't care what the treaty says the US is founded on Christianity. He then wanted me to point out just one founding father that wasn't a christian. I pointed out that Jefferson, etc., were Diests. He said well what do you think a diest is? He really thinks that a diest is the same thing as a Christian! I said no, they believed in a god but not necessarily the same god that christian's believe in. He said that was impossible, there is only one god. I then proceeded to ask him if he thought that every other religion was wrong and he said yes. He told me that he feels sorry for all of us because he will be in heaven and we will all be burning in hell. Once that was out in the open, it didn't matter what I said he would just keep repeating that Christianity was the only true religion and that everyone that did not believe would burn in hell. I told him that at least I would have a lot of company considering that only about 2 billion people in the world actually consider themselves xtian. I then asked him how he knew that Christianity was the only true religion. I asked if god had personally come to him and said that. He said no but that the bible is the only truth, therefore, Christianity is the only truth. I asked if he thought that it was a possiblity that the bible was simply a compilation of stories to teach morals and explain things that they didn't understand. He said no and then asked me to show him one shred of scientific proof that anything in the bible was untrue. I brought up noah's ark and how it appeared in various forms in other religions. He said that it is true and that the only version that is true is what is printed in the bible. I asked, what version of the bible. That got him riled up. He told me it would not matter what version, I could go back to the original manuscripts if I wanted to.

(This may not be in the exact order that the conversation went.)

I asked him if the god that he believes in is an all-loving god and views all men as equal. He said yes, except infidels. (Well, that of course is a complete contradiction in itself.) So I said, ok we have established that the god that you believe in is all-loving and that the bible is the absolute truth. Now, explain to me how an all-loving god would command his people to slaughter an entire race of people and take their virgins as their own and rape them. He said that god did it because they were worshipping false idols and so on. Then he said that he didn't know of any place in the bible that said anything about raping anyone, that it probably commanded them to take them as their wives so that they could bear their children. I told him that was still rape. He then asked me how I could possibly know the attitude of women over 5,000 years ago, especially women living with infidels. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> I told him that if the Taliban, for instance, were to conquer the US and take us women as their wives so that we could bear their children, I would certainly consider that rape, even if their god had commanded them to do it.

That pretty much touches the highlights of the conversation (if you could call it that). I am going out of town on Monday so I won't see him for over a week but I am sure that he will finish reading my letter and have some rebuttals for me when I get back. Remember, he never got past the section of the Treaty of Tripoli. I am confident that our conversation is far from over.

In the meantime, I am sure he will be praying for all of us. He did tell me that he didn't think I was a bad person for not believing, he just feels sorry for me. So, I thought you would all be glad to know that we are not bad people just because we are not Christians. I know it took a huge load off my shoulders.

Jack the Bodiless

...Sheee-it!

(ahem)

<a href="http://www.flash.net/~lbartley/au/issues/godtrust.htm" target="_blank">In God We Trust: All Others Pay Cash</a> is a handy article about the subsequent Christian hijacking of the pledge, motto, coinage etc.

Buffman

Starspun

Unfortunately your Tripoli statement requires more research.

First, let's look to the Treaty of Tripoli. It was written on May 29, 1797, 10 years after the ratification of the Constitution, during Washington's term as President. It was presented to the Senate by President John Quincy Adams, read aloud on the senate floor and passed UNANIMOUSLY.

<a href="http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm" target="_blank">http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/archive/boston_tripoli.html" target="_blank">http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/archive/boston_tripoli.html</a>

Here is an additional information tit-bit:

Pres. "JOHN" (not Quincy) Adams attached a special note in which he said, "Now, be it known, that I, John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said treaty, do, by and within the consent of the Senate, accept, ratify and confirm same, and every clause and article thereof."

("Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States" edited by Hunter Miller, vol. 2, 1776-1818. U.S. Government Printing Office, 1931, p.383)

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>