Gemma Therese

Sabine Grant

Hello Gemma... I am not an atheist but I am concerned about canonization. It is indeed a process of elevation of a human being invented by the Catholic Church. The term "saint" in the New Testament refers to "set apart" that is the entire body of believers.
What Biblical text supports canonization? Also as a question asked earlier by someone else.... what is the criteria for the Vatican to evaluate a miracle? is there a body of doctors and scientists who study the case and confirm that the healing does not involve any kind of medical treatment? are there " cut and clean" cases of terminal illnesses that were rediagnosed after the initial diagnosis as terminal and presented as healings?

I am asking those questions as I do not believe that miracles need to be existant today to confirm the interaction of God in a believer's life.

I am very concerned as a christian that we chase miracles to justify God's presence rather than experience His Presence out of what is considered supernatural.

In other words, should we need miracles and signs to believe?

Should not the scientific and medical research which allows us to overcome so many diseases be enough to us believers to aknowledge God's wisedom in inspiring the human brain ? why do we need to prove Him thru supernatural events?

Are you familiar with Padre Pio whose picture occupies more worshipping moments from southern Italians than God Himself? Or Gennaro.... I mean really ! what is that business about glorifying men before God? I went to see the collective hysteria of napolitans all rushing downtown to see if the blood of Gennaro would liquify..... there was no room for Christ in the midst of that madness.

To me there is no greater miracle than the ingeniosity God placed in the engineering of the human brain, allowing us to improve our human condition. The human resilience and strength in an ER when a nurse pounds on the chest of a patient in cardiac arrest.... the miracle is right there. The strength to not give up on the potential for life.

Do not give some much importance to signs and miracles.... they can be decietful. But the character of grace cannot be a pretense.

Mankind in itself is a miracle. The vulnerability of mankind in this vast univers somehow still preserved is a miracle.

I remember one instance when a young Italian girl came rushing to me after she claimed having seen the face of Jesus appearing over the Naples beltway.... I asked " how do you know it was Jesus?" reply " I saw his blue eyes".

We cannot conform God anylonger to what we expect of Him.

Amie

I havent gone into the saint making page but they do list some basic criteria for miracles if you scroll down page 1

here

I agree Sabine

no

I know I can recall from my trip to Italy. I have always been very fond of Padre Pio. He just seemed like a pretty cool guy from reading his biography...

I have blue eyes

have a lovely day sweet Sabine. I really liked this post of yours...

lpetrich

Jesus Christ having blue eyes???

I will now quote a certain Xenophanes, who had lived 2500 years ago:

Sabine Grant

Hello Amie ((((((Amie))))!

Sabine is on the rampage today! not so sweet about certain matters......confrontative when I need to be.

Here is my ordeal Amie....I consider that Christ is to be the sole inspiration of any christian church practices. If we carry his name and pertain to be followers of his teachings, then we need to be representative of him rather than contradict his teachings.

So I cannot help but question any church practices which in my opinion contradict the character of Christ. I cannot find anything in the NT which warrants canonization of any human being. Padre Pio may be cool but in reality the man has become an idol which surpasses Christ in the eyes of his followers. ( Pio's followers).

As believers can we elevate any man to the rank of God? are we to call anyone " His Holiness?" Christ himself is specific about not using titles for men that only God carries thru His Character... Father is one he clearly rebukes. So how can you or any catholic reconciliate the Holy Father term for the Pope with that statement from Christ?

Religion can be sold with cheap attractive features such as canonization to fascinate the crowds. But faith cannot be bargained. Faith can only grow by experiencing God on a personal level. Not by stimulus thrown at believers to insure they will follow the dogma.There is no need for dogma thru Christ. There is total direct communication with God. Direct confession to God. Direct forgiveness without any penitence.There is equality between men and women. There are people serving equaly as ministers and preachers. We are not required to be in any bondage of any dogma. We were freed by Christ from any dogma.

Also to add that the miracle market as well as canonization does not help the level of credibility believers have with non theists. Sensationalism can only contribute to feeding stereotypes. And some of them are justified as we deny the scientific evidences presented to us by freethinkers. We have to be honest. We do not have to be right.
We do not need to shelter behind any anointed holy man of God to live our faith and experience God.

GEMMA : there were other threads where you did not find the time or opportunity to answer my questions ( such as the one on Lydia). Since you seem to be a fervent catholic, I am truly interested in your answers. Have you read my comments on canonization? can you reconcile that practice with Christ's teachings? do you need signs and miracles to enhance your faith in Christ?

Amie

Hi Sabine

I think the problem exists when people become too wrapped up in the saints. When I pray, I pray to God. I dont pray to the saints. Intercessory prayer is not done to the saints but through them and ultimately its not something I take part of, but many do and I have done so before.

I see the pope as a man working for God.

most definitely

I agree

Sabine Grant

Hello Ipetrich.... the color is really irrelevent. The remark was there to denote the tendency we may have to project what we want to see.....
The representation of Christ which fits the most my visualisation of his physical appearance would be that he was a strongly built man ( carpentry work did shape his muscles and helped in his throwing around tables in the Temple... hehehehe), who enjoyed and appreciated good meals as they were offered to him, also drank wine ( ok ok... fermented grape juice for our SB's friends), loved the company of people, probably loved to toss little kids up in the air and make them laugh, bathed with his disciples in the rivers and streams on their way, probably dunked a few under water for the fun of it......he hugged and embraced people. He had a heartly laugh. A far cry from the skinny and feet not touching the ground representation of Jesus Christ. Of course... he wept. But we all know that .

Infinity Lover

(off topic but aw well...)
Sabine... in early mideaval art Jesus is portrayed beardless, which changed later on. What do you make of that?

On topic, perhaps the whole cannonizationthing in a way rewards those who managed to do an exceptionally good job at living 'a life in Christ'? Wouldn't a greater range of rollmodels enable to shift the focus more to the message and less on the source?

Sabine Grant

Hello Infinity lover.....

Maybe medieval artists considered beards to be detrimental to a holy appearance. Who knows? So much has been centered on the holiness of Christ that people may have confused holiness with physical appearance.

I mean some denominations are still reluctant to even mention the jewishness of Christ which implies that as a middle eastern man, he might have a dark skin, dark hair etc.. so we keep him blond, pale skin, blue eyes etc... ah I love the white robe!
My earlier description of Christ of course is a projection of how I imagine him. I aknowledge both his jewishness and also his personality as a man who was surrounded by crowds and sought communication with all. Accessible. Reachable.

Good point about your comments on sainthood. Possibly it is the way to materialize what the rewards may be in heaven to the believer. However what about all the missionaries who are not in the limelight? Christ teaches a degree of equality for goodness thru loving Him and loving your neighbor.....it appears that noone is superior to the other as long as they both love.

Amos

Jesus had a beard and Christ had no beard (still true today).