Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sunfair · 09-26-2002, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sakrilege:
<strong>

Is there a biblical reference for this or is it just conveniately assumed? When were the JW's established and was anyone after the Jews and before the JWs qualified?

Susan</strong>

Charles T. Russell was the founder some time in the 1870-1880s. He'd had some contact with the Adventists and some of their beliefs transferred over to JW's- no hell, no trinity, etc. He decided that there were truths in the bible that were hidden by the various contradictory creeds of the diferent branches and so he started publishing Zion's WatchTower to proclaim these truths. He died in 1916, BTW.

They believed that the apocalypse would happen in 1914. When it didn't they said (as far as I understand) that it really did happen but in some kind of invisible, spiritual way that only they could realize.

I've also heard that they moved up the date several times, but I could be thinking of another group.

I think their interpretation of it is connected to their being strong believers in apocalyptic events. They've regularly updated their theories over the years about how the end is going to come and what part they're going to play (cuz you know they've got to be in there somewhere). They have very twisty kinds of interpretations for much of their beliefs about what the bible means (including this one, IMO), and rely heavily on the Watchtower for a lot of their interpretations.

I don't know how helpful that is, but I gave it a try.

Sunfair · 09-26-2002, 07:47 PM

Thanks for posting the pics, gravitybow! I hadn't seen any for a long time and it really cracked me up.

It reminds me of this comedian I heard talking about JW's coming to his door and asking him- "Do you want to live forever in paradise?"

He replied- "Not if it's with you!"

Hugh Jass · 09-27-2002, 03:15 AM

There's a book called 'Awakening of a Jehovah's Witness' by Diane Wilson which you might find interesting. It is not well written but the fact that she took about twenty years to break away from the cult and overcome her indoctrination would freeze your blood.

Talking of blood, she has detailed chronology of the 'on again, off again' taboo on transfusions. That's right, the edict has been changed several times over the years by the ruling cabal and so it depended on when you or your child required a transfusion as to whether you were allowed it or not.

The length of time she spends trying to de-program herself makes for frustrating reading but the book is worth while for the other insights into the day to day absurdities of the JW belief system.

I was particularly taken with the demons. These little guys can be anywhere, in your toaster or your sewing box......they are not all in the bedroom closet by any means!

I would be interested to know if Joel or the other ex JW's had similar difficulties in breaking free.

crownboy · 09-27-2002, 06:01 PM

Actually, the JW's believe that the 144,000 represents "spiritual Isreal", and "gentiles" have been open to the "spiritual priesthood" from the beginning. Of course, they may have had a different explanation for this doctrine before, since they change their theological stand on some issues very often. They also believe the 144,000 need only be "spiritual virgins", i.e.: they present themselves "spiritually undefiled" to Christ (by not being in "false religious practice", I guess). So a member of that class may have sex on earth (inside the godly confines of marriage, of course

).

Oh yeah, you definitely have to be a JW to even be considered one of the 144,000. Hell, non-JW's barely stand a chance of not being destroyed by God at the end of the world

.

The lack of meat and technology always bothered me too, gravitybow. I just figured we would be so busy doing "godly" stuff, it wouldn't matter.

sakrilege · 09-28-2002, 03:14 AM

So, the Noah's flood story is to be taken literally but the Revelations verse can be 'interpreted' as needed.

'We know the answer, the data will be adjusted to fit'

gravitybow · 09-30-2002, 08:03 AM

This is from <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/heav_hel3.htm" target="_blank">religioustolerance.org</a> :

Quote:

Jehovah's Witnesses
Members of The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (WTS) believe that Hell does not exist. They interpret Hell symbolically as the "common grave of mankind." Most people simply cease to exist at death; they are annihilated, and do not continue to exist in any form.

The Heavenly Kingdom was established in 1914 CE. A "little flock" or "Anointed Class" of about 135,400 people currently inhabits Heaven. Another 8,600 are still alive at the present time; will also spend eternity with God at a later date. The battle of Armageddon will start soon. Jesus, under Jehovah's divine rage, will execute vengeance upon the rest of Christendom and followers of "Babylon the Great" (other religions). After the world is purified, a theocracy "God's Kingdom" will be established on earth for 1000 years. Those who survive Armageddon, the "other sheep," will live in peace in the newly created utopia -- a paradise on earth. They will be joined by the worthy dead who have been resurrected. After 1000 years of God's Kingdom, Satan, his demon forces and all those rebellious ones who turn against God will be finally destroyed.

In order to be saved, a person should:

- accept the doctrines formulated by the WTS Governing Body,
- be baptized as a Jehovah's Witness, and
- follow the program of works as laid out by the Governing Body.

And on <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/witness3.htm" target="_blank">this page</a> :

Quote:

They only observe two sacraments:

Baptism: this is done by full immersion of an believer who has reached the age of responsibility, has accepted the faith, has repented of their sins, and has dedicated their life to God.

Lord's Supper: this is done once a year at the Memorial of Christ's death. Only the approximately 8600 Jehovah's Witnesses who are part of the 144,000 Anointed Class actually partake in the meal; the general membership (formerly called the Jonadab Class and now called the Great Crowd) are present and observe.

According to <a href="http://www.lwbc.co.uk/jw2.htm" target="_blank">this site</a> , the 8,600 is a fluctuating set of individuals:

Quote:

...Jehovah Witnesses say the selection of the full complement of 144,000 was completed in 1935. Some 8,600 are still living on earth. They will spend eternity with God and Christ as spirit creatures. The latter number increases slightly from time to time as anointed but unfaithful members are replaced....

It seems to me that this number would actually go down, since memebership dies off at a steady rate vs. the unkown rate of unfaithfulness among the anointed.

I have a lot of questions about all this:

Why didn't an omnipotent God anoint only those he knew would be faithful, and dispense with this "you're in, now you're out" method?

In practice, how were these 8,600 men selected? (I believe I read somewhere they're all men. Correct me if I'm wrong.) Does Brother Bob stand up one day and say, "I'm anointed!"? Does he get elected somehow?

How is an increase over 8,600 made known? Does the WTS Governing Body publish "Brothers Steve, Joe Bob, and Earl are unfaithful. Three slots are now open."?

Can one be declared unfaithful posthumously? That seems the only way to continue the Lord's Supper sacrament in the decades to come as old geezers expire.

Is there a published list of the 8,600 who attend the sacramental meal? Are new members added as old ones die off?

Observation: The only way off the 8,600 list is by unfaithfulness. If the Lord's Supper sacrament continues with a new crop of "anointed" after the current iteration passes from this life, then it seems that being anointed is a certificate of unfaithfulness.

(edited for spelling)

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: gravitybow ]</p>

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09-26-2002, 07:47 PM	#22
Sunfair Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: USA Posts: 110	Thanks for posting the pics, gravitybow! I hadn't seen any for a long time and it really cracked me up. It reminds me of this comedian I heard talking about JW's coming to his door and asking him- "Do you want to live forever in paradise?" He replied- "Not if it's with you!"

09-27-2002, 03:15 AM	#23
Hugh Jass Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Brandon Canada Posts: 70	There's a book called 'Awakening of a Jehovah's Witness' by Diane Wilson which you might find interesting. It is not well written but the fact that she took about twenty years to break away from the cult and overcome her indoctrination would freeze your blood. Talking of blood, she has detailed chronology of the 'on again, off again' taboo on transfusions. That's right, the edict has been changed several times over the years by the ruling cabal and so it depended on when you or your child required a transfusion as to whether you were allowed it or not. The length of time she spends trying to de-program herself makes for frustrating reading but the book is worth while for the other insights into the day to day absurdities of the JW belief system. I was particularly taken with the demons. These little guys can be anywhere, in your toaster or your sewing box......they are not all in the bedroom closet by any means! I would be interested to know if Joel or the other ex JW's had similar difficulties in breaking free.

09-27-2002, 06:01 PM	#24
crownboy Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NYC, New York Posts: 114	Actually, the JW's believe that the 144,000 represents "spiritual Isreal", and "gentiles" have been open to the "spiritual priesthood" from the beginning. Of course, they may have had a different explanation for this doctrine before, since they change their theological stand on some issues very often. They also believe the 144,000 need only be "spiritual virgins", i.e.: they present themselves "spiritually undefiled" to Christ (by not being in "false religious practice", I guess). So a member of that class may have sex on earth (inside the godly confines of marriage, of course ). Oh yeah, you definitely have to be a JW to even be considered one of the 144,000. Hell, non-JW's barely stand a chance of not being destroyed by God at the end of the world . The lack of meat and technology always bothered me too, gravitybow. I just figured we would be so busy doing "godly" stuff, it wouldn't matter.

09-28-2002, 03:14 AM	#25
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	So, the Noah's flood story is to be taken literally but the Revelations verse can be 'interpreted' as needed. 'We know the answer, the data will be adjusted to fit'

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