Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 05-31-2003, 09:09 PM

Radorth keeps on using "legalism" as a dirty word. Without giving a clear idea of what he means by that.

Also, he charges that Catholics practice idolatry. Though there is much to be said for this accusation, I doubt that Catholics are much worse than many pagans in this regard, and I doubt that many Fundies' Bible worship is much better.

Radorth · 05-31-2003, 10:52 PM

Quote:

I doubt that Catholics are much worse than many pagans in this regard,

That was the point.

Nice to see we agree on something.

Rad

Opera Nut · 05-31-2003, 11:07 PM

I am wondering somewhat why idolatry is so specifically "bad".

The Hindu worship actual statues as representations of their gods, and the Christian and Buddhist look at statues that are not worshiped, but looked at as reminders of the qualities of the person/saint/god figure represented. Different statues of Buddha, for example, represent different facets of his abilities or his story, as well as different versions of Kwan Yin.

I believe that statues help people with a visual reminder while praying or meditating.

I think that Catholics in countries that have had to adopt pagan beliefs to survive, such as adopting the Mother-Goddess and calling her Mary of Guadalupe or a female saint, seem to do more of the actual worshiping of the statues in processions than do people in some other countries. I think it can be a subtle distinction.

sullster · 06-01-2003, 02:19 PM

Radorth,

.

sullster · 06-01-2003, 02:33 PM

Radorth,

We stray from my thread's point, yet I will try to weave my reply back into it. "Fundy" is not something defined by me. It is not a term which can be watered down and used to cover all Protestant sects. Fundamentalists are Protestant but not all Protestants are fundamentalist. Literal bible interpretation is not practised by many sects, and thus they are not "fundy".

You claim that your sect and the catholic sect have agreed about, "a major stumbling block of the Reformation", and both accept the Nicene Creed. That is just wonderful. For centuries you killed eachother over doctrinal disputes and interpretations, and now everything is peachy. Yet, now we have secular governments and constitutions which do not allow you religions to kill eachother, and you had to come to some agreement.

There are many other "stumbling blocks" from the Reformation, and you have stated a few yourself. There will never be any total reconciliation between Protestantism and Catholicism. It is utterly impossible given the fact that both groups have diametrically opposed interpretations of christian theology, ritual and organisation.

I say, great! Fight on you religious yahoos! Just don't use guns , burn eachother at the stake or take over the political system. Just let the rest of us alone. There is a lot of science to be done and lives lived without illusions.

06-01-2003, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster

Gemma, Your claim of academic achievements of nuns is greatly negated and overshadowed by the utterly patriarchial nature of Catholicism.

Hi Sullster, Catholicism remains patriarchial because we think that the liberation of females causes hair to grow on their chest and we don't really like to see them beat their own chest (or soon the'll be scratching elsewhere).

Gemma Therese · 06-01-2003, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster

Gemma, Your claim of academic achievements of nuns is greatly negated and overshadowed by the utterly patriarchial nature of Catholicism. To claim that Catholicism has advanced the opportunities for women is absurd. Nuns with academic degrees are still not allowed any power in the church and that there were more degreed nuns in the early 20th century is only indicative of the free time they had.

I suggest you read "On the Vocation And Dignity of Women (Mulieris Dignitatem)" by Pope John Paul II.

Gemma Therese

Goliath · 06-01-2003, 09:50 PM

Rationalizing BAC,

Quote:

It is not like any Christian (Catholics included) today believes anything even close to the same way that the Inquisitors did. Give it up. Happened a long time ago. As did the Crusades. Time goes on.

Christianity has learned and transformed for the better through the ages.

I more than doubt this. In fact, there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that if the US becomes a theocracy, we will see horrors and atrocities that will make the Holocaust, the Inquisition, and the Crusades put together all seem pleasant by comparison.

How many years will pass before xians march atheists off to death and torture camps by the tens of thousands? Twenty? Probably not. Eighty to one hundred? It's definitely possible.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath · 06-01-2003, 09:54 PM

Amos,

Quote:

Well freedom of religion is a dumb idea

I'm glad that you aren't leading the US.

Sincerely,

Goliath

lpetrich · 06-01-2003, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
... In fact, there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that if the US becomes a theocracy, we will see horrors and atrocities that will make the Holocaust, the Inquisition, and the Crusades put together all seem pleasant by comparison. ...

I seriously suspect that a fundie theocracy will take aim not only at freethinkers and other non-Xtians, but also at non-fundie Xtians. Simply consider the venom that many fundies direct toward theological liberalism / modernism.

I suspect that non-fundies will be sent to "re-education camps" and suchlike, and only those who subscribe to the official theology will be able to get good jobs, have recognized civil rights, etc.

Simply consider what has happened under the rule of militant Islamists -- Iran, Afghanistan, etc.

05-31-2003, 09:09 PM	#41
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	"Legalism" a dirty word? Radorth keeps on using "legalism" as a dirty word. Without giving a clear idea of what he means by that. Also, he charges that Catholics practice idolatry. Though there is much to be said for this accusation, I doubt that Catholics are much worse than many pagans in this regard, and I doubt that many Fundies' Bible worship is much better.

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05-31-2003, 11:07 PM	#43
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	I am wondering somewhat why idolatry is so specifically "bad". The Hindu worship actual statues as representations of their gods, and the Christian and Buddhist look at statues that are not worshiped, but looked at as reminders of the qualities of the person/saint/god figure represented. Different statues of Buddha, for example, represent different facets of his abilities or his story, as well as different versions of Kwan Yin. I believe that statues help people with a visual reminder while praying or meditating. I think that Catholics in countries that have had to adopt pagan beliefs to survive, such as adopting the Mother-Goddess and calling her Mary of Guadalupe or a female saint, seem to do more of the actual worshiping of the statues in processions than do people in some other countries. I think it can be a subtle distinction.

06-01-2003, 02:19 PM	#44
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	Radorth, .

06-01-2003, 02:33 PM	#45
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	Radorth, We stray from my thread's point, yet I will try to weave my reply back into it. "Fundy" is not something defined by me. It is not a term which can be watered down and used to cover all Protestant sects. Fundamentalists are Protestant but not all Protestants are fundamentalist. Literal bible interpretation is not practised by many sects, and thus they are not "fundy". You claim that your sect and the catholic sect have agreed about, "a major stumbling block of the Reformation", and both accept the Nicene Creed. That is just wonderful. For centuries you killed eachother over doctrinal disputes and interpretations, and now everything is peachy. Yet, now we have secular governments and constitutions which do not allow you religions to kill eachother, and you had to come to some agreement. There are many other "stumbling blocks" from the Reformation, and you have stated a few yourself. There will never be any total reconciliation between Protestantism and Catholicism. It is utterly impossible given the fact that both groups have diametrically opposed interpretations of christian theology, ritual and organisation. I say, great! Fight on you religious yahoos! Just don't use guns , burn eachother at the stake or take over the political system. Just let the rest of us alone. There is a lot of science to be done and lives lived without illusions.

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