Ronin

Chewing on 'shrooms.

Clarice O'C

LOL, good one, Ronin!

Another thing, Amos. If Jesus gave up on
Yahweh and started his own religion, saying
that he now was God instead of Yahweh, doesn't
that sound kind of arrogant, a grandiose delusion
maybe?

Best,
Clarice

Amos

That's easy Clarice if you are a good Catholic (my kind of "good Catholic)."

In "The Spire" Golding told us that it was as easy as eating and drinking (Golding was a "good Catholic)."

The nice part is that it is easy to be a good Catholic and better yet is that all of this is accomplished against your will (if you are a good Catholic. From the [Catholic] gospel of John (21:18): "I tell you solemnly: as a young man you fastened your belt and went about as you pleased; but when you are older you will stretch out your hands, and another will tie you fast and carry you off against your will."

The above is why Golding said that it was as easy as eating and drinking.

Amos

Nothing wrong with Judaism but Jesus was ambitious and wanted to start a new religion. When Peter asked "aren't thou the Christ" Jesus told him that such keen insight was revealed to him from his father in heaven and ordered him to tell no-one. Yes, Jesus was/became the first Christian.

Amos

Judaism was sluggish but steadfast. It still is and Jesus thought that he could improve on it and did.

Arrogant? Grandiose delusion? Maybe from oblivion and darkness but he wanted to show that we could all become Gods and that is why he told us to follow him (not worship him).

Vinnie

#1. The Baptist’s infliction of Alzheimer’s Disease and the Messiah.

The first error involves Jesus and John the Baptist. Critical scholars across the board recognize that the Christian tradition is somewhat uneasy with John baptizing Jesus and the relationship between the two. This is especially clear from the baptism accounts and the various texts subordinating John and exalting Jesus over him (e.g. Lukan infancy narrative). This is where our problem develops though.

Form a synthesis of the baptism accounts this scenario is revealed: John is baptizing people and his message is that one greater than him will come whom he is not worthy to untie the strap on his sandals. He is preparing the way for one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. People were actually wondering if John was the Christ but he was preaching the good news of the one to come whose winnowing fork will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Luke specifically says John was preaching the good news.

From John 3 and 4 we know that Jesus’ disciples baptized with Jesus with them. John’s disciples were somewhat jealous it seems and report to John that the man whom he testified about was baptizing with his disciples and everyone was going to him. John responds with “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.' The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. He must become greater; I must become less. The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.”

John clearly knew Jesus was the Christ here, the Messiah to come. The text also specifically states this was before John was put in prison. We should also note that John baptized Jesus as well according to the synoptics and John. In the synoptics Jesus comes to him to be baptized and John tried to deter him saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus said it needed to be done to fulfill all righteousness and John consented. As Jesus was coming up out of the water and praying the heavens tore open and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

There are a few differences in GJohn’s portrait. JBap specifically says look at the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. It’s interesting to note the differences between the account in the synoptics and GJohn.

Anyways, the point I wanted to establish from all this was the fact that John the Baptist clearly knows who Jesus is! This tradition however runs into a brick wall, or rather, another antithetical tradition:

In Matthew 11:2-6 and Luke 7:18-23 we find out that John the Baptist, who is now in prison is inquiring as to whether Jesus is the Christ or not.

Matthew 11:2: When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples 3to ask him, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"

This appears to be a flat out contradiction between the Biblical accounts as John is already described as knowing Jesus was the Christ and already proclaimed his as the one to come after him and as the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.


Inerrantists will have "excuses" for this but I think its an example of a plain error.

Ronin

Passeth the peace-pipe...holmes.

gravitybow

My all-time favorite difficulty is the slaughter of the Midianite captives recorded in Numbers 31 beginning with verse 13:

Not only is this a difficult passage for theists to reconcile emotionally and intellectually with their beliefs, but there is not a satifactory answer to the question, "What would you have done if you had been with Moses back then?" To spare the women and children is to defy a command from God. To say you'd participate in the killing of innocents is to admit you'll perform monstrous acts in God's name.

I got to present just this scenario earlier this year to Fastfalcon. He invented a time-machine story where we non-Christians witnessed the Resurrection and subsequently converted. I turned his story on its head, sending him farther back to meet Moses face-to-face just before the Midianite slaughter. If you would like to see some theological tapdancing, my reworked story/challenge begins near the top of <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=000467&p=7" target="_blank">page 7, Some verses to think about.</a>

Ronin

Tried that one on a fundamentalist close to me before ~ they didn't blink..."The Midianites were sinners and it was God's Will(tm) that they be punished. Therefore God is loving and just.

Exactly as Moses did, of course. They were Midianites, therefore, 'sinners' and *not* innocent women and children. God is loving and just.

Amos

Very nice articulation Vinnie but Matthew is the Jewish perspective. They do not recognize Christ and never could, nor should, or they would not have crucified him. Judaism itself became an enemy of Jesus made known in "get thee behind me satan."

John was a bosom buddy of Jesus who was born from the netherworld which is the subconscious mind of Joseph the reborn Jew. Jesus was from the conscious mind and John passified the intuit urges of Judaism that could emerge from the subconscious mind of Jesus that would prevent the descent of the dove (the house must be empty and remain empty until such time as the hypostatic union takes place wherein "the father and I become one)." This is why Baptism is a sacrament and it sacret power becomes known here.