Apikorus

Unfortunately I have no time to do any serious posting. Very busy with work - research, administration, conference organizing, etc. Haven't followed up much on the ossuary. As for reading, I've been trying to get through Ziony Zevit's magnum opus.

Cheers.

vtran31

Hi. I havent been here in a while
so sorry for interrupting. If someone would teach me how to quote that would be great.

quote:
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Rome is not mentioned in chapter nine but is the fourth beast of chapter seven and the feet of clay in Nebuchadnezzar vision.
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Jack the Bodiless:Evidence?

I haven't studied this topic in depth and may or may not in the future. here is a site though http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qwhendan3x.html

Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.

Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Dan 2:42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

I tihnk part of the reason the feet are viewed a sRoman empire is there seems to be there appears to be given in terms of empiric sucession in this passage as well as Daniel 7. I would like to make a not ethat may be my own assumptions and will most likely be debunked quickly. It says the kingdom would be divided. I recently learned in my history class about a Christian persecuting Roman Emperor named Diocletian. HE divided the Roman empire into two, east and west. I beleive it said the west became weak, kinda like clay, I beleive that becane the Holy Roman Empire or sometihng, and the east, the strong Byzantine empire. could be wrong though

I tihnk the next passage is where they get this must be the Roman Empire

Dan 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.

Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Dan 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.

vtran31

Dominus:And while we're on the subject of prophecy, here's one Christian "prophecy" demolished:

Isaiah 7:14 - Did Isaiah forsee the virgin birth?

The "prophecy" occurs in Matthew 1:23

Note: The Rabbi says that Matthew deliberately mistranslated the hebrew word "ha'almah" to mean virgin, but that's not true. Matthew actually pulled the quote from the Septuagint, a greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, the greek word being ambiguous betweeen "virgin" and "young woman". Neverthess, I think the fact that Matthew's attepted "prophecy" is based on a misreading of the original is enough to show, at least, that his gospel is certainly not infallible.

Hi agian. Like earlier, I have committed little or no study to this but here is an article http://www.christian-thinktank.com/fabprof2.html . halfway down

Family Man

Magnus --

If being outnumbered and have less weaponry were the only factors in war, then you've have a point. However, there are other factors -- such as cohesiveness and leadership -- that have an effect. There are plenty of examples from history -- the American Revolution and the Vietnam War are two that spring to mind -- where inferior forces have defeated superior forces. And I would presume my latter example would preclude any claims of divine intervention.

Only an idiot would claim that because Israel was able to survive the 1948 war that it fulfills any prophecy at all, especially since the primary event -- the reformation of Israel -- is clearly and beyond dispute self-fulfilling.

Jeremy Pallant

Okay, Magus. Let us suppose you are correct and assume that the Israeli victory in 1948 was due to your god fulfilling prophecy. Let us further assume that it would be impossible for any military power to be victorious under those circumstances unless your god was directly involved.

After examining the entire history of that conflict, which events would you say took place due to your god's direct influence, and why? I want a detailed explanation of how Yaweh caused this victory to be.

Jack the Bodiless

Considering when Ezekiel was written, it's pretty obvious that this DOES refer to the return from the Babylonian exile.

Why should Ezekiel prophesy the re-formation of Israel in 1948 but NOT the Diaspora, from AD 70 onwards? At a time when the people of Israel are returning from Babylon and other surrounding nations, Ezekiel prophesies that Israel will be reborn:
When Ezekiel said "for ever": you expect us to believe that he actually meant "for ever, except for a future interlude in which the nation of Israel would be destroyed AGAIN and its people scattered for two thousand years"?

Ezekiel's prophecy FAILED. Israel was not reborn "for ever".

Jack the Bodiless

...If you still wish to cite the re-emergence of Israel as a direct fulfillment of prophecy, please provide EITHER:

1. A post-Diaspora NT prophecy that Israel would re-form.

OR:

2. An earlier prophecy, but one definitely made AFTER the re-emergence of Israel from the Babylonian captivity, in which the re-formation of Israel from ANOTHER scattering was predicted.

Gooch's dad

Excellent point, Jack, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that Magus doesn't even understand what you mean. This is a guy that thinks that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, shortly after the 'resurrection'!!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Jack the Bodiless

I fear that you are right! So I'll shunt this whole situation 2600 years forwards in time.

The year is 4603 AD. Archaeologists studying records from the ancient "twentieth century" are discussing a speech from a prophet of the time (let's call him "Ben Gurion"). He's talking about the re-formation of the state of Israel. What a coincidence, that's exactly what happened in 4548 when the Earth Federation's Municipality of Israel was liberated from Tharg forces! It contains some inappropriate references to archaic government types (for instance, an autonomous democratic nation state with an elected legislature rather than an Earth Federation municipality), but who cares?

Ben Gurion was obviously a True Prophet, with knowledge of events that wouldn't transpire for more than two thousand years!

...Now, Magus:

This blunder might be forgivable if these people were unaware of the twentieth-century re-emergence of Israel. But what if they WERE aware of the events of that time? Wouldn't it then be rather silly to assume this was a prophecy of the distant future?

Yet that's EXACTLY the sort of idiocy advocated by those who claim that Ezekiel was prophesying events in the 20th century AD.

Racer X

You do realize that Israel was a creation of the U.N., right? It says so right there in your quote. You also realize that Israel's continued existence depends on massive U.S. economic aid, right? And I suppose their military dominance in the middle east has nothing to do with U.S provided weaponry and firepower. Why does God get all the credit for making this happen?

Okay, so God worked "through" the U.S. Obviously, YHWH favors the United States. So how did a few rice farmers in Vietnam armed with Kalishnikovs defeat the most powerful, and god-fearing military in the world. How is that possible? Oh yeah, must be divine intervention.

Therefore, Buddha is the true god.