Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 02-24-2003, 05:32 PM

Give us your ten best prophecies from the Bible. We'll show you how they don't apply.

Vorkosigan

winstonjen · 02-25-2003, 01:59 AM

I'm not Magus55, but I'd like to see them get demolished all the same.

How about these ones:

God is all-loving (easily debunked using the bible)
God is all-knowing (ditto)
God cares (partially related to the first one. I personally think that he only cares about being worshipped)
Jesus will return when his followers said he would (yeah right!)

malookiemaloo · 02-25-2003, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
Give us your ten best prophecies from the Bible. We'll show you how they don't apply.

Vorkosigan

Daniel chapter 9 computes Jesus's crucifixion as 6 April, 32 AD.

(If that's not a Friday, it's back to the drawing board for me.)

Also others in Daniel re the rise and fall of Babylon, Medo-Persian Empires, Greece and Rome.

Jesus's prediction re the destruction of the Temple.

malookiemaloo

Vorkosigan · 02-25-2003, 03:58 AM

Are you serious? Daniel was written after those empires fell!

Vorkosigan

Celsus · 02-25-2003, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
Daniel chapter 9 computes Jesus's crucifixion as 6 April, 32 AD.

(If that's not a Friday, it's back to the drawing board for me.)

Also others in Daniel re the rise and fall of Babylon, Medo-Persian Empires, Greece and Rome.

Jesus's prediction re the destruction of the Temple.

This is the best you can come up with? Please quote me the verse in Daniel 9 that's a prophecy about Rome. FYI, Daniel was written c. 168-165BCE.

Here's why:

Quote:

It's a big leap from Daniel 11:31 to verse 32. The stuff about Antiochus Epiphanes up to 11:31 is accurate possibly up to verse 35, and thus scholars can fairly accurately date Daniel to be written between 168 and 165 BCE, since that's where the prophetic accuracy drops off. Notice in verse 36 that 'the King' still refers to Antiochus IV. However, whoever wrote that website chose it to describe Herod the Great, which is of course, the point of departure from just about everyone else, and thus we enter the realm usually inhabited by Nostradamus disciples. Interpretive prophecy. 'Daniel' does mention in detail the violation and desecration of the Second Temple as described in

2 Maccabees 5:15-16:
Not content with this, Antiochus dared to enter the most holy temple in all the world, guided by Menalaus who had become the traitor both to the laws and to his country. He took the holy vessels with his polluted hands, and swept away with profane hands the votive offerings which other kings had made to enhance the glory and honour of the place.

cf. Daniel 11:31:
Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and the fortress, and shall take away the continual burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.

However, 'Daniel' does not notice its restoration by Judas Maccabees two or three years later (165 BCE) even though that would be a vital theme to his book.

cf. 2 Maccabees 10:1-4:
Now Maccabeus and his followers, the Lord leading them on, recovered the temple and the city; and they tore down the altars which had been built in the public square by the foreigners, and also destroyed the sacred precincts. They purified the sanctuary, and made another altar of sacrifice; then, striking fire out of flint, they offered sacrifices, after a lapse of two years, and they burned incense and lighted lamps and set out the bread of the Presence. And when they had done this, they fell prostrate and besought the Lord that they might never again fall into such misfortunes, but that, if they should ever sin, they might be disciplined by him with forbearance and not be handed over to blasphemous and barbarous nations.

The rest of the chapter describes the celebrations they held, and of course, if the prophecies in Daniel are to be accurate, then the Judeans must not have had much free will (note my emphases in the passage above).

Now of course if Daniel hadn't noticed this important part of his 'prophetic vision', he wouldn't have realised that Antiochus was to die two years after the restoration of the Temple(which the website does acknowledge when describing verse 30). So verse 36 refering to this same king, and there is no reason to believe that Daniel is refering to anyone else, follows with utter apocalyptic gibberish.

All of which I wrote a long time ago here.

Joel

Edited to show the emphases

Jack the Bodiless · 02-25-2003, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Daniel chapter 9 computes Jesus's crucifixion as 6 April, 32 AD.

(If that's not a Friday, it's back to the drawing board for me.)

There's an in-depth analysis of the "prophecy of sevens" here. To summarize: apologists have tried to construct a prophecy by deciding that a "week" is seven years, by rummaging around to find a suitable "royal decree" to use as a starting point, and by fiddling with the number of days in a year. And still it didn't work.

Quote:

Jesus's prediction re the destruction of the Temple.

...In the gospels. Written after the destruction of the Temple.

Given the size of the Bible, it's entirely reasonable to assume that SOME prophecies worked, by chance alone. But I'm only aware of ONE successful prophecy, the re-formation of the state of Israel. And even that one had an element of self-fulfillment: it happened because the Zionist movement was aware of the prophecy and strove to make it come true.

So, if Magus55 (or anyone else) can give his best TWO prophecies, that would be a step forward. Can he double the number of known successful Biblical prophecies?

diana · 02-25-2003, 02:45 PM

Quote:

So, if Magus55 (or anyone else) can give his best TWO prophecies, that would be a step forward. Can he double the number of known successful Biblical prophecies?

I predict that the amount of actual support Magus55 has for all those unfulfilled prophesies is roughly equivalent to the amount of actual support he has for his assertion that "Jesus' death and resurrection was attested to by many people who liked and disliked him in and out of the bible."

That is to say, someone told him this was so and pointed him to the usual suspects, none of which even pretend to be written during the time Jesus supposedly lived and died, and he accepted the list as gospel, never bothering to investigate the legitimacy of the "evidence."

So far, he's been depressingly like your usual Xn, only a little more on fire than most. I give him credit in the Zealousness department, at least.

d

Spaz · 02-25-2003, 02:51 PM

I really don't get magus, he makes arguments much worse than what's already been refuted and usually says nothing other than "this was in the bible" sorts of things, like the 500 witnessing jesus's resurrection, thinking that because it says in the same book that says jesus is resurrected that 500 witnessed it that it's true. What is that supposed to prove?

luvluv · 02-25-2003, 04:37 PM

What about Psalms 19 (I think. It could be 22.) which predicted that the messiah would die as a result of wounds through his hands and feet a few hundred years before the invention of cruficixion?

not a theist · 02-25-2003, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv
What about Psalms 19 (I think. It could be 22.) which predicted that the messiah would die as a result of wounds through his hands and feet a few hundred years before the invention of cruficixion?

It's Psalm 22 and there is no internal evidence that the Psalm was Messianic or prophetic. Rather, it uses picturesque language with animal symbolism to describe David's psychological state during his flight from Absalom (or maybe Saul?).

02-24-2003, 05:32 PM	#1
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Magus55: take the Prophecy Challenge! Give us your ten best prophecies from the Bible. We'll show you how they don't apply. Vorkosigan

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02-25-2003, 01:59 AM	#2
winstonjen Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,425	I'm not Magus55, but I'd like to see them get demolished all the same. How about these ones: God is all-loving (easily debunked using the bible) God is all-knowing (ditto) God cares (partially related to the first one. I personally think that he only cares about being worshipped) Jesus will return when his followers said he would (yeah right!)

02-25-2003, 03:58 AM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Are you serious? Daniel was written after those empires fell! Vorkosigan

02-25-2003, 02:51 PM	#8
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	I really don't get magus, he makes arguments much worse than what's already been refuted and usually says nothing other than "this was in the bible" sorts of things, like the 500 witnessing jesus's resurrection, thinking that because it says in the same book that says jesus is resurrected that 500 witnessed it that it's true. What is that supposed to prove?

02-25-2003, 04:37 PM	#9
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	What about Psalms 19 (I think. It could be 22.) which predicted that the messiah would die as a result of wounds through his hands and feet a few hundred years before the invention of cruficixion?

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