Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amit Misra · 07-01-2002, 01:38 AM

namaste, hinduwoman-ji. its misra of the verbal fog. i said you could have the last word, but then there have ben many more. i should of course considwer apoint-by point rebuttal. here goes.

Quote:

(snip: about your nom-de-guerre):I chose hinduwoman in sheer rage precisely because I did not want any bloody secularist to think I can be of their camp.

I apologize for moving you to rage by being secular. I would hesitate to be part of your "camp" (I have no camp of mine: belonging to camps robs one of status as a freethinker) comprising of the Elsts and Frawleys and suchlike votaries of a false pride in a mythical culture that you would like to call hinduism. Stick to Lokayat, and you have my sympathies and admiration.

Quote:

The so-called intellectuals secularists of India are those who

Feel the Koran should not be analyzed as a historical document because it is a matter of faith

I do not so feel. Analyze the koran all you like if you have time to waste, but remember to put it in perspective of the 7th century document that it is.

Quote:

Calls it intellectual freedom to discuss Ramayana as a story of savage colonization and that Ram was never a real person, but calls it communalism when it comes to discussing Mohammed's character

The Ramayan does describe colonization. And you can poke all the fun you want at prophet mohammad if it gives you a kick. The trick is not to mix up the two enterprizes. If you are pillorying muhammad, don't glorify rama at his expense. if you are analyzing the ramayana, judge it on the merits of the story, rather than as a counterpoint to muhammad's life.

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Demands that Rushdie's book be banned because it hurts Muslim sentiments but says they cherish freedom of speech above all

Hey, I was in hostel at Jamia Hamdard (>75% inmates were muslims) when the Satanic Verses was published. I smuggled in and lent out at the rate of 10 rupees a read, copies of the book at the risk of being beaten up by ignorant louts. BUt you have to concede that Midnight's Children was better than Shame was better than Satanic Verses which is actually good compared to A Moor's Last Sigh...

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Demand the arrest of those who disrupt showing of Fire and then use governmental authority to stop the showing of a film because it shows a 'distorted' picture of Stalin as a mass-murderer

I would like to see those protesters arrested but I am blissfully ignorant about the Stalin film. I hasten to add, however, that Stalin was a horrible man--no better than the imperialist presidents of the US who have caused thousands of people to be killed, imprisoned, etc., etc.

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Explain that they cannot fight for Muslim women's rights because it would give fuel to Hindu communal propaganda that Islam is a misogynist religion

Just wait to see if the Hindustan Times publishes my letter (sent earlier today) lambasting the All India Muslim Personal Law Board for filing a special leabe petition in the supreme court. The petition demands that muslims should be exempt from the law fixing the minimum age of marriage for girls at 18 years. The wierdos in this Board claim that the shariat says that women are marriagable at puberty. Even if the shariat (whatever that is!) says so, its absolutely disgusting to want to implement such barbarism in this day and age.

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Insist that RSS is forcefully imposing worship of Ram on the rest of India to the detriment of local gods --- a theme crafted for western sensibilities

Forcible imposition of Ram: see my thread of last June year in this forum, where I have said that the RSS is taking over popular festivals. Its now part of marriage ceremonies in this part of the country to chant a ramdhun as the couple circles the sacrificial fire.

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Instead of critiquing VHP's proof of Ramjamnashan temple write paper that Ram was actually a Pharaoh of Egypt and that merely their saying that VHP is a communal organization can take the place of facts

For goodness' sake: don't defend the VHP goons. I am not a student of history, but I must confess that the VHP historians SP Gupta, BB Lal et al do not inspire great regard in my limited reading of their work. I'd appreciate a reference for the Pharaoh paper. Are you sure it wasn't about Ramses (in the plural) and not a singular Ram? ;-)

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Negate Islamic history in India ...(snipped for brevity)... under the belief ordinary Indians are unable to read history for themselves

Don't get "communal", friend. History has no religion: islamic history versus hindu history are words from the religious right's language. However, I do not think any responsible historian or any school textbook is saying anything like the kind of stuff you mention. As to historiography, it is often flawed, but what sources do you suggest that "ordinary Indians" should consult for reading history? Your idols Elst and Frawley? Just check to see whether they publish anything that their peers in the international community of historians accept.

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Shrieks about saffronization of History conveniently forgetting how they themselves had unceremoniously thrown out portions that did not agree with their preconceived notions and that even now they teach in universities that Soviet Union was really a success in essence

Ah! now I have it! Its not just the Hindu you are defending. It is the political system of petit-bourgeois (hope I've spelt it right!) capitalism that you profess. And of course, since the sole opposition to this repugnant and exploitative system is communism, you hate the secular-ist your word), who more often than not, leans left. That is why you seamlessly flow from secular-ist to Soviet within the span of a single "they."

Phew. I have your number now, hinduwoman. You are expressing political angst in cultural garb-- the time-honored trick of the hindu right. I'm sorry that our shared atheism isn't common ground in politics. For the record, I lean left, but am not committed enough to be called a communist though I admire them a lot.
Much of your indictment of the secularist remains to be answered, but I must rush. See you later.
amit

hinduwoman · 07-05-2002, 03:18 PM

Well, why did you not say that you were a communist earlier? Then I would not have bothered to write any reply.

After all, while capitalism is an economic threat, culture is the major threat to communist designs to win over the minds of people. Such people refuse to believe that dialectical materialism is the only truth, that Marx was a prophet, or that Communism will bring heaven on earth and the only reason communist states failed was because truecommunism had never been practised.

Amit Misra · 07-08-2002, 12:58 AM

OK, if you are willing to promote me from "fellow traveller" (as the Marxist would call me) to a communist, I gladly accept...
But why won't you talk to communists? Because they might take over your mind? Make you believe that the real issues for India are livelihood, land-reform, nutrition, healthcare, drinking water, environment, women's empowerment, etc., instead of religious pride?
This is why I'm afraid of the RSS. It has the ability to lie profoundly and convincingly-- to the people, to its workers, and to skeptics like you, that the real issue is hindu pride. And practice, behind its facade of lies (little white ones as well as humongous whoppers), a virulent brand of fascism. Don't laugh them off, Hinduwoman, they have already successfully carried out an ethnic cleansing pogrom in Gujarat. And they are sharpening their claws in Eastern UP. Gorakhpur will be the next site of attacks by the RSS on muslims.

hinduwoman · 07-09-2002, 04:47 PM

I refuse to talk to communists because they are a bunch of liars and hypocrites.
you don't trust historians like B.B. Lal? I would trust him than Romilla thapar who goes around explaining that there were only isolated examples of temple destruction during Muslim rule.
As for politicans --- if our perpetural primeminister-in-waiting, Jyoti Basu is your model, perhaps you can imitate his being the leader of the destitute by having a house in Mayfair London?
Have you ever lived at communist ruled states of Kerala and West Bengal or do you prefer not to go in fear that first hand experiences might shatter your rosy view?

As for ethnic cleansing progrom, yes the word is thrown around frequently. I hope it is permissble to use it for 1969 Gujarat riots or for Sikh massacres or for the cleansing of Hindu Pandits from Kashmir? Funny thing is there are many muslims still alive in Gujarat. VHP is damned inefficient. As for UP, interesting point. I suggest the Muslim organizations try to promote harmony instead of endorsing paedophilia.

hinduwoman · 07-13-2002, 05:45 PM

Here is an article that admirably summs up what I am trying to say.

<a href="http://www.sulekha.com/column.asp?cid=218625" target="_blank">http://www.sulekha.com/column.asp?cid=218625</a>

I don't know about the American part, but the Indian part is spot on.

Quote:

Unfortunately, in the name of progress, modernity, and political correctness, Indian Classics have been virtually banished from India’s higher education – a continuation of the policy on Indian education started by the famous Lord Macaulay over 150 years ago.. While India supplies information technology, biotechnology, corporate management, medical and other professionals to the most prestigious organizations of the world[iv], it is unable to supply world-class scholars in the disciplines of its own traditions. ...

To cover up their ignorance, many elitist Indians resort to a combination of Eurocentric and Marxist rhetoric about Indian civilization – the caste, cows and curry theory of India. They quote Orientalist accounts of India and even base their own scholarship as extensions and derivatives of colonial writings superimposed with Marxism. On the one hand, postcolonial studies are at the very heart of their specialization and career paths. But on the other hand, they are only trained in using Eurocentric hermeneutics and methods. Hence, they can deconstruct Eurocentrism with Western methods, but are completely inept at applying Indic categories and perspectives. They cannot replace the Eurocentric representation model with anything indigenous from India. Postcolonial studies often end up as Orientalism by the neocolonized.
...
Jawaharlal Nehru University, one of India’s elite institutions in the liberal arts, and the seminary that produces many of these maladjusted intellectuals, has fought hard to resist the establishment of a Sanskrit and Indian Classics department, whereas it is proud of its faculty and curriculum in a wide variety of European languages and civilizations

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Ronald Inden explains how postcolonial Indian scholars have fallen into this trap:

“With the rise of identity politics, ‘postcolonial’ historians have shifted away from imagining class and national unities in India’s past and have started pointing to diversities, but many of these studies have a tendency to recuperate the older colonialist imaginings of India. Representations of the systematic mistreatment of women (patriarchy), the exploitation of the young (child labour), domination by a parasitic Brahman caste of Aryan descent, discrimination by castes (untouchability), and the triumphalism of an atavistic Hinduism reiterate the earlier images of India as an inherently and uniquely divided and oppressive place.”[xix]

These scholars hate being characterized as Eurocentrics, because that would run counter to their status as anti-colonialists and pro-Subaltern. Yet, they denigrate the sacred traditions of the very subaltern people for whom they claim to speak.
...
Furthermore, for political correctness, and to keep their “secular” ratings high, the well-documented genocides of Hindus are suppressed. This is in sharp contrast with the way Black slavery, Jewish holocaust and Native American genocide are mainstream topics and emphasized in American school textbooks.
...
While each rich and powerful civilization emphasizes its indigenous cohesiveness and continuity, and with scholarship under control of those loyal to it, the reverse is the trend among the economically weak civilizations such as India. In the case of Indian civilization, the scholars’ emphasis has been on how there might not even be such a historical entity as India or Hinduism, and how its civilization was entirely brought by foreigners into India.
...

The influence of Thapar’s Children in the Western world is considerable. Almost every year, they fly their icon around the world for speaking tours at prestigious campuses, where her cult-like former students are well fed gatekeepers. They make sure that no opposing voice is included on the panels – hardly an academically sound approach. At one of her talks last year, someone from the audience had the courage to ask her whether she knew Sanskrit and whether she had read the original texts, or whether she relied mainly on European sources for her scholarship. Very angry at this “rudeness,” she dismissed the question by saying that she “only answers questions from academically qualified persons.” Clearly, since she did not know the woman in the audience, Thapar had no way of assuming that this person was not an academician, except for the fact that only an outsider to the cult and its sphere of control would dare ask such a question.

The American academe considers her and her former students as the authorities on India. Any challenge to this hegemony of the brown (mem)sahibs is met with fierce personal attacks.

Boy, had he got it correct! No questionings allowed! If you do you are a Hindu Nazi. And I can attest from personal experience most of them had not even bothered to read the actual texts they are critiquing!

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“Ethnic shame is the opposite of ethnic pride … and it is a sublime example of the success of colonialism in co-opting us in our own subversion, and in our alienation from our culture and our earth, and ultimately the extinction of our own culture…. Educated Indians feel that they must apologize for every Indian who spits or shits by the roadside, for India's official corruption, for the poor quality of Indian manufactured goods, for our repeated defeats by foreign conquerors, for our dirt and disease and poverty, now and forever. Faced with such a burden, it is no wonder that some Indians succumb to the temptation of simply denying their Indian origins….Why is ethnic shame such a serious matter, and not just some personal oddity? Because it contributes to our collusion with the forces that tend to make us invisible in a foreign society…. But there are other, more serious reasons for our shame, no doubt: the Western media’s and the American people’s association of India with highly negative images…. The India Haters Club is growing larger and larger, and its largest contingent is probably the millions of Indians for whom a few bitter experiences of betrayal have pushed them over the edge into self-hatred: Yes, my skin is brown, but my soul is white.”

Rah, rah, rah! that exactly it: by trashing one's culture and blindly imitating the West (even in fashions of criticism) they think their skins will become white and they be freed of the stigma of belonging to a third World country.
and it need not surprise anyone these are the people who freaks out more than the orthodox Hindus about black people marrying into their family.

Quote:

The frustration from being denied white status often gets an outlet via postcolonial studies. This is the syndrome that Richard Crasta has called “impressing the whites.” It is what Enrique Dussel, Frantz Fanon, Edward Said, and many others explain as the process by which the dominant culture appropriates a tier of intellectuals from the colonized culture, to serve as proxies in intellectually ruling over the masses. In exchange for this loyalty to the dominant culture, these Uncle Toms receive a considerably enhanced position, various rewards, and a sort of neo-white status. ...

Today, the Indian Sepoy archetype, found in the Western academe and journalism, often does the dirty intellectual work. Their role on behalf of the dominant culture is to supply the myth of the "other" in a way that fits into the dominant culture's grand narrative of itself. Rather than glorifying their success, the sooner their readers start to publicly call their lie, the better
...
An American academic scholar, who publicly identifies himself as a Hindu, complains about many of his cohorts in South Asian Studies:

“It is very sad that those who once supported free thinking and spirituality now support political correctness and Marxism. I find that the South Asianists on this campus, both westerners as well as the Indians (who are almost exclusively from high caste, urban elite families) and Pakistanis (also ALL from wealthy families) have, for the most part, a real hatred of Hinduism specifically, and religion in general. Because I am not ANTI-Hindu, which ‘good’ scholars here are supposed to be these days, I was long ago labeled a fundamentalist and relegated to the fringe. Whenever there is a conference on South Asia, I am not invited. [But] it is okay because I have a tenured position.
...
It is this kind of NGO mentality that sends speakers to International conferences and to foreign media, so as to sensationalize and “expose” the internal social problems of India. While many NGO staff members and scholars are immersed into the Hindu and India phobia movement, there are also a large number who are simply sucked into this out of sheer ignorance, or out of the temptation for foreign travel and various grants as rewards. Many NGOs are the fifth column of Stealth Eurocentrism.

While the agenda of neocolonialism is rarely visible in the grant agreements, everyone experienced in this cottage industry knows what reports are “correct” to produce, in order to keep the foreign funds flowing. Those who resist “selling out” are weeded out by the sponsors in a Darwinian game in which fitness is defined in terms of anti Indic Traditions
...

Continuing the British colonial practice, Hindu temples in India today are under the trusteeship of civil servants appointed by the Government of India, many of whom are not even Hindus.[xlviii] Therefore, when I give a donation at Tirupati, one of the largest Hindu temples in India, the money goes to the control of civil servants of the government, who then decide how it gets spent. However, the places of worship of all minority religions, such as Islam and Christianity, are entirely run by the management appointed by their respective members, with no governmental interference. By way of comparison, American Christians would never accept comparable discrimination against them. It is unthinkable that Churches in USA could come under the control and supervision of Federally appointed trustees, especially if non Christian religions would be exempted from this, simply as a way to prove the leaders’ “secularism.”
There is only one civil law in USA for all its citizens, regardless of religion. There is no such thing as a separate Jewish Law, or Catholic Law, or Mormon Law, or Protestant Law, or Muslim Law, and so forth, to govern the public life of Americans. The very thought of this is reprehensible to Americans. Yet, there is a separate and distinct Muslim Personal Law in India. This has been used by past politicians to grant religious minorities specific provisions. For instance, Indian Muslims may have four wives under Indian law, even in this 21st century – and yet it is fashionable for many intellectuals to defend this minority pampering law, rather than condemning it on grounds of human rights.
...

It is a great tragedy in this country that words like Secularism, Sanatana Dharma, Social justice, uplifting of Dalits and so on, which are to be the considered greatest goals and ideals in any civil society,…. have become the playthings in the hands of petty politicians and anti-nationals who want to divide people to achieve self-gains even by throwing the society into unrest, and to warm themselves by lighting the pyres. The irony is that those mostly responsible for this state of affairs are the armchair intellectuals… Because of the irrational behavior of these intellectuals, it has now come to pass that anyone who wants to be recognized as secular, should be a professed leftist, and interpret society on a Minority-Majority basis or on Brahmin-Non Brahmin basis or Forward-Dalit basis. He, therefore, has to interpret, without using his critical faculties, any incident that occurs in the country so as to demonstrate that he is a leftist, an anti-Brahmin and a pro-Dalit. If not, he is at risk of being segregated and kept out of the coveted community of 'Progressive intellectuals'. Now-a-days, to be considered as a member of the progressive intellectual community, it is not necessary as of yester years to be a scholar in Tarka, Vedanta or Mimamsa, or even geography, history or science,… It would suffice if he were committed to the above-mentioned policy.

Reminds me of a lot of people!

Amit Misra · 07-18-2002, 12:37 AM

So this diatribe against "eurocentrism" and "leftism" and "post-colonial, pseudo-subalternism" reminds you of a lot of people, including me?
i'd prefer to keep personalities out of it, but can't resist bragging. i am one of the 4 people in my class who did not go to the US (or, for that, the UK and France) despite job (not post-doc!) offers. i do not gain from wearing my quasi-left leanings on my sleeve- my topmost boss, Prof. Raghunath Anant Mashelkar is activelty involved with the VHP (by his own public admission). Consequently, the bulk of the science establishment in our country, from Mashelkar downwards to the lowliest of lowly scientists like me can be observed to be rushing headlong to glorify "hindu" science. This is what the RSS wants, and the opposition to this crass hinduization can, of course, be construed to emerge from people like me, mired in "ethnic shame" and "anti-hindu" sentiment.
To take the most boring, middle-of-the-road stance, I suffer niether from the ethnic shame i'm being accused of, nor the ethnic pride that you think should move me to appreciate hindutva. I am merely irritated by the shitting - spitting - ramacharitmanas-spouting average hindu, and have only opprobium and fear to confront the "rama on the tongue and a knife up the sleeve" hindutva convert.
Why don't I emigrate to the "white" western world and cash in upon my assiduously cultivated semi-whititude? The last offer (in 1997) was for US $ 75,000 p.a. after tax. Because I have equal irritation towards the mindless suburban US corporate robot and the racist redneck- the counterparts of the hindu and hindutva-vadi aforementioned.

In short, I am denying "ethnicity" and "religious identity" and "cultural affinity" any power over human-ness.

To revert to the topic of the thread you started: I am afraid of the RSS, not simply because its rising hegemony will see people like me ridiculed given undeservedly bad names and hounded out of public fora, or that leftists will be removed from jobs, or that JNU will start teaching Astrology and Priestcraft, or that Indian children will be taught that muslims are evil. I am more afraid because the RSS will bring about a fascist state that will require its citizens to put Hindutva above self.

hinduwoman · 07-20-2002, 05:28 PM

I am not objecting to your being against crass hindunization. What I am objecting to is the denial of history and tradition in the name of something abstract called humanness --- a human's culture is a part of every human's humanness --- and a critical study of Hindu society without intention of either glorifying or condemning.

The second factor is what I see as blind support of Muslim personal law merely because they are the minority. to be a minority does not mean that they automatically should be above common law, or that human rights of people from their own community be ignored. Lots of muslim women are against polygamy, how come their voices are not as important.?

Rss can be stopped, but only if the people doing the opposing are not seen as being anti-hindu for the sake of being modern. Right this moment suppoort for Rss grows not because of its own merit but because of how communal issues in this country are handled.

When Kalam was nominated the fuss about his not being true muslim! So how come we only heard about the so called Islamic apologists? I am sure there are ordinary muslims who do not care, but no English newspaper seems interested in speaking to them. After Kaif's batting it is the so called secularists who kindly brought it into our attention that he was a muslim. Average Indians had not really concentrated on his religious identiy till then. so who is being divisive here?

Read Pritish Nandi's article on Hindustan Times. (I will try to find a link). No person possessing critical faculties will accept this farrago of rubbish: "while Americans admire people who have travelled from logcabin to white House Indians admire losers like Mirabai who left her palace, or that Subhas Bose is admired because he lost all his battles". When this person is proudly hailed as a secualist, it becomes obvious that something is rotten about our seculaist intellectuals.

hinduwoman · 07-20-2002, 07:15 PM

Cannot find the link, but it was on Friday, July 19th, 2002 edition of Hindustan Times.
Pritish Nandi --- The Devdas syndrome.

If to be against people like Jyoti Basu, Pritish Nandi et al is being a Nazi then I insist on being a Nazi.

Amit Misra · 07-24-2002, 01:07 AM

OK, we seem to be moving towards some semblance of agreement. If I have it right,
1. You don't have anything against objective analysis-- historical, sociological, political, etc., of hindus. You object to any condemnation that emerges from such an analysis.
2. You hate (Jyoti Basu et al) more strongly than you love (the Nazis). [BTW, was it Pritish or Ashis Nandy who wrote the HT article that riled you? PN has been cosying up to Elst/Frawley/Swapan Dasgupta lines of thinking over the period that the BJP has been in power.]
3. You welcome Kalam as our president, but not because he is an untrue muslim. You choose to ignore his association with a jingoistic and militaristic agenda so beloved by the RSS.
Well, thats as maybe. What about the title of the thread you started. Why aren't you afraid of the RSS? Because you are not a muslim? Because you are not a communist? Because you will be the last on their list of victims?
The RSS can be stopped, and it must be stopped without pandering to the sensitivities of non-communal, simply religious hindus. These latter kinds of hindus only deserve my contempt (as do adherents and votaries of any religion- including islam). If they are alienated by uncomfortable facts about history, sociology, politics- so be it.
But, minorities deserve protection, and my puny voice shall be raised in their defence till you or your natural allies, the Nazis or the RSS strangle it. We owe it to the plurality of India to pamper, coddle, encourage and celebrate minorities. We should point out the faults in their systems of life and thought (e.g. oppose tooth and nail the horrible idea that muslim girls should be married off at puberty), but we have no call to discriminate against minorities in our own conduct, much less to murder them en masse for percieved historic wrongs and contemporary mores.
Cheers, and bye. I won't be able to respond to your next, in case you're planning to add to this.

hinduwoman · 07-26-2002, 04:35 PM

I fully agree that sociological and historical facts must not be ignored just because it makes people feel uncomfortable and that includes the FACTS of Muslim atrocities.

It is Pritish Nandi. he would write for whomever is in power and would give him money. Ashish Nandi does not write such painful nonsense.

noone objects to minorites being treated as citizens. But I am not prepared to think that just because they are minorities they are more than equals. I refuse for example to pay for their Haj trip --- you pay it from your own pocket if you are so anxious about their rights.

My point was that RSS could be controlled and it was not necessary to be terrified of them as the bogeyman: treat them with cautious alarm and stomp on them when neccessary. If the Muslims would try harder to integrate instead of announcing that Shariat is the only valid law and giving fatwas that one must not take a Hindu as a friend or eat at a religious ocassion of your Hindu boss' home, they would not be detested so much.

I know I would be called a Nazi --- anyone who dares to criticize the secular line is automatically a Nazi.

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07-05-2002, 03:18 PM	#42
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Well, why did you not say that you were a communist earlier? Then I would not have bothered to write any reply. After all, while capitalism is an economic threat, culture is the major threat to communist designs to win over the minds of people. Such people refuse to believe that dialectical materialism is the only truth, that Marx was a prophet, or that Communism will bring heaven on earth and the only reason communist states failed was because truecommunism had never been practised.

07-08-2002, 12:58 AM	#43
Amit Misra Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Lucknow, UP, India Posts: 814	OK, if you are willing to promote me from "fellow traveller" (as the Marxist would call me) to a communist, I gladly accept... But why won't you talk to communists? Because they might take over your mind? Make you believe that the real issues for India are livelihood, land-reform, nutrition, healthcare, drinking water, environment, women's empowerment, etc., instead of religious pride? This is why I'm afraid of the RSS. It has the ability to lie profoundly and convincingly-- to the people, to its workers, and to skeptics like you, that the real issue is hindu pride. And practice, behind its facade of lies (little white ones as well as humongous whoppers), a virulent brand of fascism. Don't laugh them off, Hinduwoman, they have already successfully carried out an ethnic cleansing pogrom in Gujarat. And they are sharpening their claws in Eastern UP. Gorakhpur will be the next site of attacks by the RSS on muslims.

07-09-2002, 04:47 PM	#44
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	I refuse to talk to communists because they are a bunch of liars and hypocrites. you don't trust historians like B.B. Lal? I would trust him than Romilla thapar who goes around explaining that there were only isolated examples of temple destruction during Muslim rule. As for politicans --- if our perpetural primeminister-in-waiting, Jyoti Basu is your model, perhaps you can imitate his being the leader of the destitute by having a house in Mayfair London? Have you ever lived at communist ruled states of Kerala and West Bengal or do you prefer not to go in fear that first hand experiences might shatter your rosy view? As for ethnic cleansing progrom, yes the word is thrown around frequently. I hope it is permissble to use it for 1969 Gujarat riots or for Sikh massacres or for the cleansing of Hindu Pandits from Kashmir? Funny thing is there are many muslims still alive in Gujarat. VHP is damned inefficient. As for UP, interesting point. I suggest the Muslim organizations try to promote harmony instead of endorsing paedophilia.

07-18-2002, 12:37 AM	#46
Amit Misra Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Lucknow, UP, India Posts: 814	So this diatribe against "eurocentrism" and "leftism" and "post-colonial, pseudo-subalternism" reminds you of a lot of people, including me? i'd prefer to keep personalities out of it, but can't resist bragging. i am one of the 4 people in my class who did not go to the US (or, for that, the UK and France) despite job (not post-doc!) offers. i do not gain from wearing my quasi-left leanings on my sleeve- my topmost boss, Prof. Raghunath Anant Mashelkar is activelty involved with the VHP (by his own public admission). Consequently, the bulk of the science establishment in our country, from Mashelkar downwards to the lowliest of lowly scientists like me can be observed to be rushing headlong to glorify "hindu" science. This is what the RSS wants, and the opposition to this crass hinduization can, of course, be construed to emerge from people like me, mired in "ethnic shame" and "anti-hindu" sentiment. To take the most boring, middle-of-the-road stance, I suffer niether from the ethnic shame i'm being accused of, nor the ethnic pride that you think should move me to appreciate hindutva. I am merely irritated by the shitting - spitting - ramacharitmanas-spouting average hindu, and have only opprobium and fear to confront the "rama on the tongue and a knife up the sleeve" hindutva convert. Why don't I emigrate to the "white" western world and cash in upon my assiduously cultivated semi-whititude? The last offer (in 1997) was for US $ 75,000 p.a. after tax. Because I have equal irritation towards the mindless suburban US corporate robot and the racist redneck- the counterparts of the hindu and hindutva-vadi aforementioned. In short, I am denying "ethnicity" and "religious identity" and "cultural affinity" any power over human-ness. To revert to the topic of the thread you started: I am afraid of the RSS, not simply because its rising hegemony will see people like me ridiculed given undeservedly bad names and hounded out of public fora, or that leftists will be removed from jobs, or that JNU will start teaching Astrology and Priestcraft, or that Indian children will be taught that muslims are evil. I am more afraid because the RSS will bring about a fascist state that will require its citizens to put Hindutva above self.

07-20-2002, 05:28 PM	#47
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	I am not objecting to your being against crass hindunization. What I am objecting to is the denial of history and tradition in the name of something abstract called humanness --- a human's culture is a part of every human's humanness --- and a critical study of Hindu society without intention of either glorifying or condemning. The second factor is what I see as blind support of Muslim personal law merely because they are the minority. to be a minority does not mean that they automatically should be above common law, or that human rights of people from their own community be ignored. Lots of muslim women are against polygamy, how come their voices are not as important.? Rss can be stopped, but only if the people doing the opposing are not seen as being anti-hindu for the sake of being modern. Right this moment suppoort for Rss grows not because of its own merit but because of how communal issues in this country are handled. When Kalam was nominated the fuss about his not being true muslim! So how come we only heard about the so called Islamic apologists? I am sure there are ordinary muslims who do not care, but no English newspaper seems interested in speaking to them. After Kaif's batting it is the so called secularists who kindly brought it into our attention that he was a muslim. Average Indians had not really concentrated on his religious identiy till then. so who is being divisive here? Read Pritish Nandi's article on Hindustan Times. (I will try to find a link). No person possessing critical faculties will accept this farrago of rubbish: "while Americans admire people who have travelled from logcabin to white House Indians admire losers like Mirabai who left her palace, or that Subhas Bose is admired because he lost all his battles". When this person is proudly hailed as a secualist, it becomes obvious that something is rotten about our seculaist intellectuals.

07-20-2002, 07:15 PM	#48
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Cannot find the link, but it was on Friday, July 19th, 2002 edition of Hindustan Times. Pritish Nandi --- The Devdas syndrome. If to be against people like Jyoti Basu, Pritish Nandi et al is being a Nazi then I insist on being a Nazi.

07-24-2002, 01:07 AM	#49
Amit Misra Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Lucknow, UP, India Posts: 814	OK, we seem to be moving towards some semblance of agreement. If I have it right, 1. You don't have anything against objective analysis-- historical, sociological, political, etc., of hindus. You object to any condemnation that emerges from such an analysis. 2. You hate (Jyoti Basu et al) more strongly than you love (the Nazis). [BTW, was it Pritish or Ashis Nandy who wrote the HT article that riled you? PN has been cosying up to Elst/Frawley/Swapan Dasgupta lines of thinking over the period that the BJP has been in power.] 3. You welcome Kalam as our president, but not because he is an untrue muslim. You choose to ignore his association with a jingoistic and militaristic agenda so beloved by the RSS. Well, thats as maybe. What about the title of the thread you started. Why aren't you afraid of the RSS? Because you are not a muslim? Because you are not a communist? Because you will be the last on their list of victims? The RSS can be stopped, and it must be stopped without pandering to the sensitivities of non-communal, simply religious hindus. These latter kinds of hindus only deserve my contempt (as do adherents and votaries of any religion- including islam). If they are alienated by uncomfortable facts about history, sociology, politics- so be it. But, minorities deserve protection, and my puny voice shall be raised in their defence till you or your natural allies, the Nazis or the RSS strangle it. We owe it to the plurality of India to pamper, coddle, encourage and celebrate minorities. We should point out the faults in their systems of life and thought (e.g. oppose tooth and nail the horrible idea that muslim girls should be married off at puberty), but we have no call to discriminate against minorities in our own conduct, much less to murder them en masse for percieved historic wrongs and contemporary mores. Cheers, and bye. I won't be able to respond to your next, in case you're planning to add to this.

07-26-2002, 04:35 PM	#50
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	I fully agree that sociological and historical facts must not be ignored just because it makes people feel uncomfortable and that includes the FACTS of Muslim atrocities. It is Pritish Nandi. he would write for whomever is in power and would give him money. Ashish Nandi does not write such painful nonsense. noone objects to minorites being treated as citizens. But I am not prepared to think that just because they are minorities they are more than equals. I refuse for example to pay for their Haj trip --- you pay it from your own pocket if you are so anxious about their rights. My point was that RSS could be controlled and it was not necessary to be terrified of them as the bogeyman: treat them with cautious alarm and stomp on them when neccessary. If the Muslims would try harder to integrate instead of announcing that Shariat is the only valid law and giving fatwas that one must not take a Hindu as a friend or eat at a religious ocassion of your Hindu boss' home, they would not be detested so much. I know I would be called a Nazi --- anyone who dares to criticize the secular line is automatically a Nazi.

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