Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hinduwoman · 05-14-2002, 06:39 PM

The secularists most of all, because they see the sphere of their influence shrinking.

The main defect of RSS and its affiliated organizations is to put it in PC speak --- they are intellectually challenged. They have an unquestioning belief in the divinity of Vedas, reality of miracles and holy men, willingness to swallow practically anything wonderful you say about Hinduism, ignorance of critical thinking, and a strict hierarchical structure.
Secondly, They are paranoid about the destruction of Hindu culture. So they get excited over trivial things like Valentine's Day celebrations and are hypersensitive about what foreigners are saying or doing about Hinduism.
Regards Islam and Christianity with the gravest suspicion, with the firm belief that every Muslim is out to get them and priest = evil. They also have a childish belief that ancient India was a golden age which was corrupted by Muslims --- that is a too total view.
If they are not kept in check, then it could turn into a theological tyranny.

On the other hand, Rss had become enormously popular and powerful in the last 20 years. This has come about because surprisingly enough, the movement is not fundamentalist or fascist in the Western sense of the term. It had begun with the idea of a Hindu state where other religions would be second-class citizens, but in the last 50 years many ideas of the organizations changed. Partly this is due to response to changes in environment, and partly because Nature's great sovereign remedy of killing off the old has come into play:

It effectively abolished caste-system in its own ranks. Anyone can be a member of Rss and all members are required to eat and drink together. So today you see untouchables eating and touching Brahmins. Also, they work in cities and villages to promote castelessness. Sanskrit taught to all. Positions open to all, and in reality too. This is one reason why recently untouchables, Backward Castes and tribals can be found imbued with the spirit of hindutva.

Social work is carried out by them. They have set up schools, hospitals, wells, counseling services (stopping drinking, wife-beating) in remote areas.

About women their stand is various. While many still think that a woman's first priority is to be a good wife and mother, they no longer think it sacrilegious for a woman to work outside home or have a voice in men's affairs. The women's wings are particularly active. They generate employment for rural women. Again when BJP ruled M.P jobs were opened up to women in leather goods, electronics, generators. While some still think that a woman must keep a bad marriage going, there are also BJP cells that counsel women on domestic abuse, dowry and encourage women to walk out of bad marriages. Women are given martial training, also with firearms. Abortion is no problem though some think it is bad karma, but they are willing to allow women the choice, nor do they insist that women spend their lives bearing children. They are against female foeticide. The parent organization of RSS is more conservative, but they do not believe in keeping women in the house always or covering themselves up from head to foot (but don't try nudity!). They see no problem in having women priests. Several women are active leaders in RSS et al --- these organizations have actually more prominent women leaders than other political parties. While there can be many differing interpretations of their views about women, what is really important is that they do not demand any legislation restricting women. It is therefore not really surprising that these organizations draw so many women supporters, yelling, "We are not flowers, we are sparks of fire".

Homosexuality/transversites: completely indifferent about having a policy for them.

They now want a secular state, where all would be equal. They have now sufficiently progressed to say that members of all religions and even atheists can be Hindus, the term simply meaning someone who lives in India and is respectful to Hindu culture. Of course, Buddhists, Sikhs and Jainism are automatically included. Nowadays, they carefully distinguish between good Muslims and bad Muslims. Bad Muslims are those who are devoted to the Koran and give their loyalty to Muslim ummah rather than to the country. Good Muslims are those whose first loyalty is to India, like the Muslim soldiers and Abdul Kalam who created the Indian atom bomb. (The problem here is of course Muslims are expected to live a hinduinized lifestyles or do something dramatic to prove themselves). Similarly they want Christians to have a national Indian church instead of obeying a Pope in Rome or accepting funds from American Baptists--- a not too radical a demand. It leaves the Muslims and Christians somewhat vulnerable. What the RSS thinks is that religions with extra-territorial loyalty is always suspect. But remember neither Jews (who do have extra-territorial holy place and loyalty) nor Parsis exhibit any concern: if there were ever vulnerable minorities, it is these twos. But precisely because there had never been any problem with them, the RSS takes it for granted that they too are bona-fide 'Hindus'.

Most important: no pet moral and family values they want to implement through legislature! However they do get excited about pornography and wants to censor TV channels --- but no one is paying attention to them.

All these persuade me that there is no fear we will end up having a Nazi state. Though the communists picture RSS and associated organizations as an ahistorical static group, simply because a fossil is what they themselves are, I see them as being very Hindu --- co-opting modern notions like democracy and feminism.

Of course you have to keep sitting on them because eternal vigilance is the price of liberty etc. Give them too much power, and we would find ourselves with an orthodox regime, trying to bring back purity in the public realm. Popular pressure can keep it moving in the correct direction.

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: hinduwoman ]

hinduwoman · 05-14-2002, 06:49 PM

secular bashing

The secularists are into hysterics about such activities that has garnered so many supporters. They are particularly upset that sections of society who should have been gazing adoringly at them as saviours, has turned to RSS. All they can whine is about how RSS is manipulating religion. The question of course is that while RSS was carrying out its nefarious agenda, where were our secularists? Well, they were busy writing papers, attending international seminars and lecturing government officials and academicians--- all in English of course. Actually go into the villages, share the daily life of the poor people there, speak only in the vernacular and above all do actual work! They are born for nobler purposes, our secularists.

roshan · 05-14-2002, 08:04 PM

whenever somethin bad happens or when there is violence, the rss is blamed.

of course, i have never seen any evidence at all, merely accusations.
but from reading what the rss is saying in the news, it isnt anti muslim or anti christian at all. theyve even praised famous muslims, and called them nationalists.

Susheel · 05-14-2002, 09:30 PM

In my neck of the woods?...hmmmmm... any no-hindu (obvious), free thinking hindus, gays, lesbians, women with a mind of their own, lower castes....
In my experience there are two didtinct types of RSS workers. One is the educated, cultured type who can (and will) take you on in a discussion involvin religion and can pose some pretty good arguments for their cause.
Then there are the goons with brains the size of a pea (my refrigerator has better IQ)

Susheel · 05-14-2002, 09:32 PM

In my neck of the woods?...hmmmmm... any no-hindu (obvious), free thinking hindus, gays, lesbians, women with a mind of their own, lower castes....
In my experience there are two didtinct types of RSS workers. One is the educated, cultured type who can (and will) take you on in a discussion involvin religion and can pose some pretty good arguments for their cause.
Then there are the goons with brains the size of a pea (my refrigerator has a better IQ) whose main aim is to inflict maximum physical damage in the name of what they perceive as religion.
OOOh...Roshan, some of those accusations are real. Take it from a person who has seen it happening first hand. My friend still has the scars of the encounter.

Ron Singh · 05-14-2002, 09:36 PM

Are these the same people that tried to call Sikhs hindus?

~Your friendly neighborhood fifteen year old Sikh.

roshan · 05-15-2002, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sikh:
Are these the same people that tried to call Sikhs hindus?

~Your friendly neighborhood fifteen year old Sikh.

hey, dont feel too special. the rss considers buddhists and jains as hindus too.

Ron Singh · 05-15-2002, 02:39 AM

Special? Aww..And I thought I was gonna be a celebrity..

Boro Nut · 05-15-2002, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
So today you see untouchables eating and touching Brahmins.

This party seems interesting. I would consider joining but have some concerns. Is the canibalism mandatory or optional?

Quote:

Also, they work in cities and villages to promote castelessness

I would strongly recommend keeping the castles, and use them to promote tourism.

Boro Nut

Susheel · 05-15-2002, 09:00 PM

hinduwoman,
One good turn deserves another. I am pursuing your reading list, so I hope you don't mind making my suggestion. There ia a rather interesting article "One Step Outside Modernity: Caste, Identity Politics and Public Sphere" by MSS Pandian in the May 4-10 issue of Economic and Political weekly. I think it would interest you.

Boro Nut, the canibalism bit was quite funny

though I am sure you knew she made a mistake.

05-14-2002, 06:39 PM	#1
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Who is afraid of RSS? The secularists most of all, because they see the sphere of their influence shrinking. The main defect of RSS and its affiliated organizations is to put it in PC speak --- they are intellectually challenged. They have an unquestioning belief in the divinity of Vedas, reality of miracles and holy men, willingness to swallow practically anything wonderful you say about Hinduism, ignorance of critical thinking, and a strict hierarchical structure. Secondly, They are paranoid about the destruction of Hindu culture. So they get excited over trivial things like Valentine's Day celebrations and are hypersensitive about what foreigners are saying or doing about Hinduism. Regards Islam and Christianity with the gravest suspicion, with the firm belief that every Muslim is out to get them and priest = evil. They also have a childish belief that ancient India was a golden age which was corrupted by Muslims --- that is a too total view. If they are not kept in check, then it could turn into a theological tyranny. On the other hand, Rss had become enormously popular and powerful in the last 20 years. This has come about because surprisingly enough, the movement is not fundamentalist or fascist in the Western sense of the term. It had begun with the idea of a Hindu state where other religions would be second-class citizens, but in the last 50 years many ideas of the organizations changed. Partly this is due to response to changes in environment, and partly because Nature's great sovereign remedy of killing off the old has come into play: It effectively abolished caste-system in its own ranks. Anyone can be a member of Rss and all members are required to eat and drink together. So today you see untouchables eating and touching Brahmins. Also, they work in cities and villages to promote castelessness. Sanskrit taught to all. Positions open to all, and in reality too. This is one reason why recently untouchables, Backward Castes and tribals can be found imbued with the spirit of hindutva. Social work is carried out by them. They have set up schools, hospitals, wells, counseling services (stopping drinking, wife-beating) in remote areas. About women their stand is various. While many still think that a woman's first priority is to be a good wife and mother, they no longer think it sacrilegious for a woman to work outside home or have a voice in men's affairs. The women's wings are particularly active. They generate employment for rural women. Again when BJP ruled M.P jobs were opened up to women in leather goods, electronics, generators. While some still think that a woman must keep a bad marriage going, there are also BJP cells that counsel women on domestic abuse, dowry and encourage women to walk out of bad marriages. Women are given martial training, also with firearms. Abortion is no problem though some think it is bad karma, but they are willing to allow women the choice, nor do they insist that women spend their lives bearing children. They are against female foeticide. The parent organization of RSS is more conservative, but they do not believe in keeping women in the house always or covering themselves up from head to foot (but don't try nudity!). They see no problem in having women priests. Several women are active leaders in RSS et al --- these organizations have actually more prominent women leaders than other political parties. While there can be many differing interpretations of their views about women, what is really important is that they do not demand any legislation restricting women. It is therefore not really surprising that these organizations draw so many women supporters, yelling, "We are not flowers, we are sparks of fire". Homosexuality/transversites: completely indifferent about having a policy for them. They now want a secular state, where all would be equal. They have now sufficiently progressed to say that members of all religions and even atheists can be Hindus, the term simply meaning someone who lives in India and is respectful to Hindu culture. Of course, Buddhists, Sikhs and Jainism are automatically included. Nowadays, they carefully distinguish between good Muslims and bad Muslims. Bad Muslims are those who are devoted to the Koran and give their loyalty to Muslim ummah rather than to the country. Good Muslims are those whose first loyalty is to India, like the Muslim soldiers and Abdul Kalam who created the Indian atom bomb. (The problem here is of course Muslims are expected to live a hinduinized lifestyles or do something dramatic to prove themselves). Similarly they want Christians to have a national Indian church instead of obeying a Pope in Rome or accepting funds from American Baptists--- a not too radical a demand. It leaves the Muslims and Christians somewhat vulnerable. What the RSS thinks is that religions with extra-territorial loyalty is always suspect. But remember neither Jews (who do have extra-territorial holy place and loyalty) nor Parsis exhibit any concern: if there were ever vulnerable minorities, it is these twos. But precisely because there had never been any problem with them, the RSS takes it for granted that they too are bona-fide 'Hindus'. Most important: no pet moral and family values they want to implement through legislature! However they do get excited about pornography and wants to censor TV channels --- but no one is paying attention to them. All these persuade me that there is no fear we will end up having a Nazi state. Though the communists picture RSS and associated organizations as an ahistorical static group, simply because a fossil is what they themselves are, I see them as being very Hindu --- co-opting modern notions like democracy and feminism. Of course you have to keep sitting on them because eternal vigilance is the price of liberty etc. Give them too much power, and we would find ourselves with an orthodox regime, trying to bring back purity in the public realm. Popular pressure can keep it moving in the correct direction. [ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: hinduwoman ]</p>

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05-14-2002, 06:49 PM	#2
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	secular bashing The secularists are into hysterics about such activities that has garnered so many supporters. They are particularly upset that sections of society who should have been gazing adoringly at them as saviours, has turned to RSS. All they can whine is about how RSS is manipulating religion. The question of course is that while RSS was carrying out its nefarious agenda, where were our secularists? Well, they were busy writing papers, attending international seminars and lecturing government officials and academicians--- all in English of course. Actually go into the villages, share the daily life of the poor people there, speak only in the vernacular and above all do actual work! They are born for nobler purposes, our secularists.

05-14-2002, 08:04 PM	#3
roshan Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: philippines Posts: 72	whenever somethin bad happens or when there is violence, the rss is blamed. of course, i have never seen any evidence at all, merely accusations. but from reading what the rss is saying in the news, it isnt anti muslim or anti christian at all. theyve even praised famous muslims, and called them nationalists.

05-14-2002, 09:30 PM	#4
Susheel Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: India Posts: 25	In my neck of the woods?...hmmmmm... any no-hindu (obvious), free thinking hindus, gays, lesbians, women with a mind of their own, lower castes.... In my experience there are two didtinct types of RSS workers. One is the educated, cultured type who can (and will) take you on in a discussion involvin religion and can pose some pretty good arguments for their cause. Then there are the goons with brains the size of a pea (my refrigerator has better IQ)

05-14-2002, 09:32 PM	#5
Susheel Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: India Posts: 25	In my neck of the woods?...hmmmmm... any no-hindu (obvious), free thinking hindus, gays, lesbians, women with a mind of their own, lower castes.... In my experience there are two didtinct types of RSS workers. One is the educated, cultured type who can (and will) take you on in a discussion involvin religion and can pose some pretty good arguments for their cause. Then there are the goons with brains the size of a pea (my refrigerator has a better IQ) whose main aim is to inflict maximum physical damage in the name of what they perceive as religion. OOOh...Roshan, some of those accusations are real. Take it from a person who has seen it happening first hand. My friend still has the scars of the encounter.

05-14-2002, 09:36 PM	#6
Ron Singh Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 163	Are these the same people that tried to call Sikhs hindus? ~Your friendly neighborhood fifteen year old Sikh.

05-15-2002, 02:39 AM	#8
Ron Singh Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 163	Special? Aww..And I thought I was gonna be a celebrity..

05-15-2002, 09:00 PM	#10
Susheel Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: India Posts: 25	hinduwoman, One good turn deserves another. I am pursuing your reading list, so I hope you don't mind making my suggestion. There ia a rather interesting article "One Step Outside Modernity: Caste, Identity Politics and Public Sphere" by MSS Pandian in the May 4-10 issue of Economic and Political weekly. I think it would interest you. Boro Nut, the canibalism bit was quite funny though I am sure you knew she made a mistake.

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