Freethought & Rationalism Archive

abe smith · 05-19-2003, 06:22 AM

Say, "spliff": when you sign your posts "love spliff": (without any median comma), does this signature mean "I, Spliff, send you my love. See my magnanimity!" or, on the other hand (gloved or gloveless) do you mean "love spliff" to mean "PLEASE love me (Spliff) because I won't feel comf'tible unless I KNOW that youpeople here reeeely LOVE me." I realize that this quibble may seem fullish, but indeed it sticks in my craw every time you use it.....

BioBeing · 05-19-2003, 09:01 AM

Rhea - I do not know the Xian answer to your MIL problem, but in my mind, the ONLY thing to do is "force your love on her". If 24 hour sitters are not an option (which would allow her to remain at home, but she might have to sell the house to pay for them) then she has to either move to a home or move in with you. As a human being, I can say that it is not right for you to leave her to suffer and die!

[For the Xians too] What would be the case if Rhea's MIL were also diagnosed with Alzheimers? Would it be OK to have her committed to a lock-down ward without her consent? Or would you still say just leave her to rot?

For many of us, as our parents/loved ones become older, these are hard questions that we have to answer.

BioBeing · 05-19-2003, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
If we knew that we would be God. Why is it so important to you to know how its done? God said it will be done. We trust God, therefore we don't dwell on how.

It is important ot me because I see it as a paradox. A loving God could not possibly create/allow Hell, especially as described by Thomas d'Aquina...

I do not trust God. I do not believe there is any god. If I were to suddenly believe in God, would this paradox just go away? Or would I have to put it on faith -- to supress my current state of rational (?) thinking?

However, I think I have resolved this seeming paradox, when this thread is combined with the unequally yoked thread.

Quote:

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (KJV)

Sounds to me like Xians aren't supposed to have anything to do with non-believers anyway, so of course they won't care about them burning in eternal torment in Hell. Just cast out anyone in you life who is not a true believer (TM), then of course you won't feel sorry for them once they are in Hell and you are in heaven. Because if you do not cast them out, then you will go to hell too:

Quote:

Deuteronomy 7:3-4
Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.

To the OP - this obviously means that you loved ones are not going to go to Heaven, because if they love you, they are unequally yolked (maybe you don't want to tell them that

)

BadBadBad · 05-19-2003, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman
Actually one of the happiness in heaven is seeing sinners burn ---
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
"The blessed in the kingdom of heaven will see the punishment of the damned, in order that their bliss be more delightful for them."

Tertullian: De Spectaculis
"How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye? What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? Which rouses me to exultation?--as I see so many illustrious monorachs, whose reception into the heavens was publically anouced, groaning now in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those, too, who bore witness of their exultation; governers of provinces, too, who persecuted the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride they raged against the followers of Christ. What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their followers that God has no concern in aught that is sublunary, and were wont to assure them that either they had no souls, or that they would never return to the bodies which at death they had left, now covered with shame before the poor deluded ones, as one fire consumes them! Poets also, trembling not before the judgment seat of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the unexpected Christ! I shall have a better opportunity then of hearing the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; of viewing the play-actors, much more 'dissolute' in the disolving flame; of looking upon the charioteer. all glowing in his chariot of fire; of beholding the wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows; unless even then I shall not care to attend to such ministers of sin, in my eager wish rather to fix a gaze insatiable on those whose fury vented itself against the Lord....What quaester or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favour of seeing and exulting in such thing as these?And yet even now we in a measure have them by faithin the picturings of imagination. But what are the things which eyes has not seen, ear has not heard, and which have not so much as dimly dawned upon the human heart? Whatever they are, they are nobler, I believe, than circus, and both theaters, and every race-course."

So of course you would be happy when you see your loved ones burn in hell; if you are not then it is proof you yourself belong in hell.
How many christians actually hold this view today?

Nice post hinduwoman. And the response from the christians who say it isn't so is what?

BadBadBad · 05-19-2003, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
Long winded fool, did you know what what you wrote doesn't agree with the Bible? Have you read this?

Luke 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 "`No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Despite what you wrote, this man in hell (actually Hades-for-wicked-people which is the precursor to hell) doesn't seem happy; it doesn't seem that he's getting everything he wanted.

I don't know what you believe about the Bible. I'm just pointing out that you and the Bible evidently aren't in agreement.

Helen

Nice job nailing the jello to the wall, but what about you? Your husband is an atheist. What solace do you have for your prospects for a blissful eternity in Heaven, while for the same eternity, your husband burns in agony begging to you in Heaven? Will you be oblivious, apathetic, or entertained?

Cojana · 05-19-2003, 04:51 PM

Forgive the intrusion, I would venture to answer your inquiry about Helens Athiest husband, he will be in agony thinking about his wife in heaven, but, alas, she will have been converted to a sheep,without individual thought, and sheep don't care for one another, for all she knows her husband are just another sheep,her thoughts don't travel further then the grass she's chomping on,content and happy,...

BioBeing · 05-20-2003, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brettc
Nice post hinduwoman. And the response from the christians who say it isn't so is what?

The theists have suddenly become noticable by their absence... maybe a nerve has been touched?

long winded fool · 05-20-2003, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brettc
Nice post hinduwoman. And the response from the christians who say it isn't so is what?

Well, "church tradition" is only a doctrinal authority for catholics. The terrible things done in the name of Christianity may reflect poorly on past Christians, but they don't refute Christianity in themselves.

BadBadBad · 05-21-2003, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by long winded fool
Well, "church tradition" is only a doctrinal authority for catholics. The terrible things done in the name of Christianity may reflect poorly on past Christians, but they don't refute Christianity in themselves.

I won't deny that, but it certainly shows a difference of opinion. Your opinion is contradictory to the Bible, as pointed out by Helen. That shows you are no true scottsman either. Now unless you can come up with a biblical basis for your opnions or biblical basis to deny someone elses, I think we can generally declare all of this absolute pure speculation.

If you don't have any basis in the Bible for views, then I think it would be rational for you consider the possibility that your eternity in Heaven may be marred by the begging, pleading and suffering of loved ones in Hell.

Cojana · 05-21-2003, 09:39 AM

member Brette, all individuals bound for heaven, check out their individualism as they enter heaven,they become mindless sheep on boundless pastures, love one's in hell are faced with the futility of knowing thier loved one's are sheep that don't give hoots about fryee, its the only way heaven can exist, someone whom goes to heaven must have a bastard whom went to hell, if not sheep converted,then heaven are moot,...:boohoo:

05-19-2003, 04:51 PM	#66
Cojana Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Reseda, California Posts: 651	Perdon, me dan puerta? Forgive the intrusion, I would venture to answer your inquiry about Helens Athiest husband, he will be in agony thinking about his wife in heaven, but, alas, she will have been converted to a sheep,without individual thought, and sheep don't care for one another, for all she knows her husband are just another sheep,her thoughts don't travel further then the grass she's chomping on,content and happy,...

05-21-2003, 09:39 AM	#70
Cojana Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Reseda, California Posts: 651	mindless individuals reigns in heaven member Brette, all individuals bound for heaven, check out their individualism as they enter heaven,they become mindless sheep on boundless pastures, love one's in hell are faced with the futility of knowing thier loved one's are sheep that don't give hoots about fryee, its the only way heaven can exist, someone whom goes to heaven must have a bastard whom went to hell, if not sheep converted,then heaven are moot,...:boohoo:

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05-19-2003, 06:22 AM	#61
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Say, "spliff": when you sign your posts "love spliff": (without any median comma), does this signature mean "I, Spliff, send you my love. See my magnanimity!" or, on the other hand (gloved or gloveless) do you mean "love spliff" to mean "PLEASE love me (Spliff) because I won't feel comf'tible unless I KNOW that youpeople here reeeely LOVE me." I realize that this quibble may seem fullish, but indeed it sticks in my craw every time you use it.....

05-19-2003, 09:01 AM	#62
BioBeing Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 6,004	Rhea - I do not know the Xian answer to your MIL problem, but in my mind, the ONLY thing to do is "force your love on her". If 24 hour sitters are not an option (which would allow her to remain at home, but she might have to sell the house to pay for them) then she has to either move to a home or move in with you. As a human being, I can say that it is not right for you to leave her to suffer and die! [For the Xians too] What would be the case if Rhea's MIL were also diagnosed with Alzheimers? Would it be OK to have her committed to a lock-down ward without her consent? Or would you still say just leave her to rot? For many of us, as our parents/loved ones become older, these are hard questions that we have to answer.

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