Jamie_L

Roughly the same thing that happened to me before my conception. I don't exist.

Yes it does. I may wish it weren't so, but I also with I was independently wealthy. My wish has no effect on the reality of either.

We don't. We try may argue vehemently over the existence of God, but I've argued just as vehemently over whether or not "Armageddon" was a good movie. We're humans, and we like to argue.

That's the cart before the horse. Would it make sense for me to invent a religion, and then try to prove it? Why does it make sense for me to try to prove a religion that I think someone else invented?

We don't try to prove God doesn't exist. We have looked at the world and concluded he doesn't. We try to explain our conclusions to others, not disprove God for our own benefit.

Already addressed. I was raised and live in the U.S. Christianity is the majority religion. I sometimes do perceive it as a threat because it is often sponsored by the government. I imagine if the majority religion involved the Invisible Pink Unicorn, I'd spend most of my time targeting it. (Sorry, IPUists. Or is that IPUians?)

More like Western Europe? Big hypothetical question, really, with too many unqualified possibilities. I believe it could be better.

Welcome to the boards, by the way. It's boring to argue without theists around here, and it's always good to have polite ones. I shall endeavor to return the favor (though you should be warned others may not).

Jamie

Dianna

But...if you have facts there is no need for belief.

Dianna.

Harumi

I think that that's just a play on semantics here. Believe and know are often used interchangeably...probably incorrectly, but I do it often enough.

Breeze, are you saying that you don't need faith to believe in God because you have facts? Huh. A Christian with no faith. That'll be something to see.

Dephanie

Goliath

What a disgusting display of xian arrogance. How dare you presume to know what is best for every single person on this planet!

And xians have the gall to call atheists arrogant?!

"Kettle, this is pot, over."

Sincerely,

Goliath

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]</p>

daemon

Don't know for certain. Given what I know about human physiology, it seems likely that there is no me after death.
You are incorrect. Some atheists believe this to be the case, others do not. For the sake of argument, I am one of the former, but you might do well to be more precise in your claims.
Fair enough. However, you seem to attribute some sort of value to this state of affairs that I don't.
I'm sorry, what? I don't "try hard" to deny or reject God. By definition, I deny God but rejection seems silly--I don't believe in this entity, how can I reject it?

As to why I don't try to prove that there is a God, I haven't seen anything to lead me to conclude it's possible.
This perception is probably because it is atheists from Christianity-dominated societies that you hear about. As to whether we see Christianity as a threat, I'd say it primarily depends upon the practitioner. Some sects are more inherently threatening (Westboro Baptists, for example), while others encourage magical thinking to a dangerous degree.
Given the myriad interpretations of "Christian beliefs" out there, I don't believe this question can be properly answered. It assumes there is a unified coherent set of beliefs identified as Christian, when, in fact, this is not the case.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: daemon ]</p>

Brian63

Breeze, in your OP you asked several extremely large questions that in themselves each lead to in-depth topics. Please don't feel a need to respond to each and every post, because you will probably be burned out if you do. If you plan on sticking around for a while, then you can probably get to most of them eventually. If I was you, I would focus more on answering the posts of the people who reciprocated your courtesy, and simply ignore the ruder ones. You are free to do otherwise though.

Anyway,

Ummmm...I think you're taking this a bit too far. I have my own ideas about what is best for other people, and I'd bet you do too.

For the sake of an example, I'll assume that you believe that people would be better off if they were more educated than they presently are and received more formal education of some sort. I certainly do. This would be an example of me believing that I know what is best for everyone else, and probably for you too.

Most of us probably have our own ideas about what is good for others, even if they disagree with it. I see nothing wrong or arrogant in that.

Brian

BreezeinaTree

Starboy, you have such little faith.

See my post below.

K

OK. I'm starting to wonder what happened to Breeze. I have to admit that I am looking forward to seeing the actual data.

Breeze, are you there?

BreezeinaTree

Several people are looking for some evidence for why I believe Christianity and why I believe that there is a God. Below is an explanation. It's rather long, so bear with me.

BTW, I appreciate that most people have been very civil. I'm sorry that some so-called "Christians" before me have visited this site and have been jerks to you all.


1. Comparison of Christians and Non-Christians
I became a Christian primarily because of the effect I observed it had on people and their relationships. This is something I observed over a period of time, probably about ten years.

I grew up in a dysfunctional family. My parents were teenagers when they married and had me a year later. They divorced when I was very young. My mother was awarded custody of me but allowed me to live with my father. At the time I thought she was being nice, but in hindsight it I realized that it benefited her because she did not have to pay child support. Over time her visits dwindled to maybe once or twice a year. At the time of this writing, I have not spoken with her in about six years.

My father was a good man but he and I had conflicts and issues as well. Neither he nor my mother were Christians, or had any spiritual belief to my knowledge.

All this made for an unsettling home life with no emotional or spiritual grounding. The only spiritual influence I had was my paternal grandmother. She had a strong faith which I would not characterize as intellectual, but it helped her hang on through three bouts with cancer.

In high school, I fell into a group of friends who were predominantly Christian. At the time I was not looking for Christian friends, just friends. However, these people were nice and fun-loving. I spent most Friday and Saturday evenings with them, usually going to a movie or the mall or some other teenage hangout. I often spent time at their homes, and saw some of their home life with their parents. The difference was night and day compared to my home. They all seemed generally happy. All were successful, though not all were well-off. The parents seemed to generally love their children. The children received attention and actually had a relationship with their mom and dad. I did not have that. Over time, as I visited several of their homes, I noticed this pattern repeated. I eventually concluded by observation that Christianity leads to a generally good home life. Note that these people were from various Christian backgrounds, including Catholic, Lutheran, Southern Baptist and “non-denominational” churches.

Obviously, what I just described does not prove that God exists. But it does demonstrate that happiness and family stability are correlated with following Christ. In other words, the wisdom of the Bible has a psychological effect on its adherents that extends into the real world in a practical, tangible way.

That was what originally motivated me to become a Christian. However, I am not satisfied with touchy-feeling stuff as the basis for my beliefs about my life on this Earth or in eternity to follow. Some time after accepting Christ as Savior and Lord, I began looking for other evidence that I could cling to.


2. Early Followers of Christ
Ideally, Christians adhere to the teachings of Christ. After all, that is where our name comes from. Christ is not present on this Earth in bodily form today, so to learn about Him we must look at records from the past. The primary records we have are found in the Bible, although there are extra-biblical documents attesting to His existence as well.

For anyone reading this who is not a Christian or is not very familiar with the Bible, let me give you a very brief rundown of mainstream Christian belief.

Christians believe that Jesus is God. Christians believe this because Jesus said He is. You can find multiple references in the Bible that show that Jesus believes He is God. Two excellent examples are found in the Gospel of John (John was one of the original twelve followers of Jesus). The first account is found in John 8:58. In this passage and the surrounding text, Jesus is having a debate with some Jews. During this debate, he says “before Abraham was born, I AM.” The name “I AM” is the same name that God told Moses to use to describe himself to the Israelites, as recorded in Exodus 3:14. In other words, Jesus was claiming to be the pre-existent God. The Jews recognized what Jesus was doing, and attempted to stone Him for blasphemy, because he was making Himself out to be God. The other excellent example is found in John 10:30. You can read it for yourself, but you will see that Jesus claimed one-to-one equality with God, and again faced stoning from the Jews (especially note verse 33, where the Jews say why they are trying to stone Jesus).

Notice that because Jesus claimed to be God, you cannot categorize Him as a “good teacher” or a “good man”, as many often try to do. You have only three choices with Jesus. He either claimed to be God but knew He was not (this makes Him a liar), or He thought He was God but actually was not (this makes Him a lunatic), or He claimed He was God and really was God (this makes Him Lord). I believe the latter option. There are no other choices. This is it. I challenge anyone reading this to give me any other alternative, or to demonstrate that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic. You are left with only one choice.

As most people know, Jesus was crucified about three years after He began His public ministry. The twelve men who had followed him watched as He was nailed to a cross, a humiliating and excruciating form of Roman capital punishment. The followers scattered, as you might expect. Here is a man who claimed to be God, yet now He was apparently overcome by mere mortals and was being executed. Who could blame them for deserting Jesus?

Yet, about 40 days later, you find all these men boldly proclaiming that Jesus is God and that He is the only way to salvation. History records that these men were all martyred for this belief, dying gruesome deaths themselves. Something happened during that 40 days that completely convinced these men that Jesus is God. The Bible records that Jesus was resurrected from the dead. This is the central foundation of Christian faith.

To me, this is the best evidence that Jesus is God (and therefore, that God exists). People do not die for what they know to be a lie. They may die for what they believe to be true, but not for what they know to be false. These men saw Jesus die, yet every single one of them also attested that He was resurrected from the dead and believed this to their graves. One of my favorite passages from the Bible is found in the book of Acts (which records the activities of the early Church), in chapter four and verse 20. Two of the disciples are warned by Jewish rulers not to continue teaching about Jesus. The response of these two disciples is simple and to the point: “We cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and what we have heard.” These men were convinced by empirical evidence.

I hope that you will read this over again to make sure you absorb what I have said, then comment on it. I look forward to hearing from this group.

Goliath

BreezinaTree,

Prove it.

Wait, you don't have to actually prove your statement above, because I can produce a counterexample: Mad Kally. Her fundy mother made her childhood a living hell (note that she is not alone as such an example). Therefore your claim that xianity "leads to a generally good home life" is demonstrably false.

First of all, can you cite, or have you performed, a statistical study that looks at every household in America that has a xian in it and attempts to find a correlation between xianity and family stability? No? Then your claim carries no weight whatsoever.

Furthermore, even if you could provide such a study, it would still be worthless, because correlation does not imply causation.

Here are two options that I thought up in...oh...about three seconds:

1. Jesus never existed.

2. Jesus was mistaken about being a god.

Oh, and since I never claimed that Jesus existed, I have no burden of proof with respect to your refuted "trilemma." You, on the other hand, need to prove that Jesus existed.

Then, by your reasoning, Allah must exist, since the 9/11 hijackers would not have died for what they knew to be a lie.

Sincerely,

Goliath