Peter Kirby

This thread is opened up to discover the answer to the question: are there any messianic prophecies in the Hebrew Bible? And if so, what are they?

In your answer, please quote the passage(s) that may contain a "messianic prophecy" and explain why you interpret it as being a prediction about the Messiah.

Hopefully we can develop a good-sized list of candidates, accompanied by argumentation about their meaning.

I look forward to responses from Jews, Christians, atheists, etc.

best,
Peter Kirby

Hochstetler

What I'd love to see is written, Pre-Jesus, Jewish explanations of which bits of their scripture were generally agreed upon to be a Messianic prophecy, which were in dispute, and how they were expected to be fulfilled.

As far as I know, such a goldmine doesn't exist.

If it existed, the New Testament wouldn't be allowed to arbitrarily declare this and that to be Messianic however the writers figured they could get away with it and apply it to Jesus. On the other hand, Jews wouldn't be able to bend their interpretation away from what existed before Jesus.

All around, it would make any alleged prophecy fulfillment a lot more impressive.

- Hochstetler

P.S. - For me, the Christian treatment of Isaiah 7 is, all by itself, enough evidence to laugh off the religion.

Evangelion

Any half-decent Christian apologetics Website should be able to provide the information you're looking for.

Why bother? The atheists will revert to their usual cognitive dissonance in order to "explain away" any parallels which look too convincing, and simply ignore the rest.

That's what I was looking forward to when I first signed up at IIDB.

Good luck finding it. I sure didn't.

Evangelion

So would I.

No, it doesn't. But as Glen Miller has correctly observed, there exists a substantial amount of pre-Christian material which provides us with a clear indication of Jewish messianic expectations before the 1st Century AD. (See here.)

There's nothing "arbitrary" about it.



It will doubtless astonish you to learn that many Jewish exegetes of the post-Christian era later agreed with the Christian interpretation of the Messianic prophecies. (See here, for example.) But you didn't know that, did you? No, of course you didn't.

Naturally.

Oh, you mean the fact that we defer to the Jewish-authored, pre-Christian LXX translation which refers to the mother of Messiah as a "virgin"? Yes, how silly of us.

Peter Kirby

Do you want to provide a link? Maybe we could talk about it.

I don't know if you've understood my original intent in this exercise. It is nothing other than a better understanding of the Hebrew Bible. I have not asked for "parallels" to Jesus in the Old Testament, but for messianic prophecies to be found in Jewish Scripture, regardless of to whom they might apply.

There are Jews, Christians, and atheists participating in our forums. There are also people who I'd just as well wish they'd do something else with their time, but I have no right to exclude them from discussion. I just don't let them spoil my fun.

best,
Peter Kirby

Evangelion

I don't know of any site which offers an exhaustive list, but Miller's work (referred to in my previous post) is a pretty good start IMHO. This site offers a reasonable overview. This one isn't too bad, either. And again, we have the passages which the Jewish sages accepted as Messianic (here), as mentioned in my previous post.

{snip insults edited by moderator}

I understand your intention. I just don't think it will be allowed to go anywhere.

I didn't dispute this. What I've disputed is the existence of a consistently profitable dialogue.

Spoiling my fun is one thing; wasting my time with their impenetrable ignorance is quite another. I have a particularly low tolerance for wanton stupidity - especially when coupled with intellectual dishonesty.

judge

Thanks for those links evangelion. Very interesting stuff for me to go over some time. Particularly the glenn miller stuff.

Peter Kirby

OK, we can take the verses listed on this web site as a starting point. Do you agree with saying that all of the listed passages were written as messianic prophecies in the mind of the human author? If not, which ones do you think are actually messianic prophecies? An incomprehensive list would be fine.

best,
Peter Kirby

Evangelion

Cheers, m8.

Evangelion

Fine with me.

In accordance with the parameters of my theological circle, I operate under the assumption that the human authors were divinely inspired and therefore understood these prophecies to be Messianic.

Hell's bells, now you're really asking.

Well, since Christians tend to differ amongst themselves over the precise definition of a Messianic prophecy (and again, on the question of which particular prophecies are genuinely Messianic) I prefer (as a general rule of thumb) to accept only those which are confirmed (either explicitly or implicitly) in the New Testament.