seebs

(Haven't been around because, no offense, UBB is just a lot more annoying than VBBoard.)

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22374&perpage=5&pagenum ber=1" target="_blank">http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22374&perpage=5&pagenum ber=1</a>

In this thread, DNAunion, a creationist/ID'er of old, tries to help build hatred of evolutionists by showing how, if you come to believe evolution, you necessarily lose faith in God and have no basis at all for any moral system. Along the way, he asserts that pagans have no morals, and makes a number of hilarious mistakes in trying to describe biology.

What makes this one scary: He tries to show this by claiming to be an *example* of a person having lost his faith because he came to accept evolution. Now, unless this happened within the last few days, a casual search of his other web activities reveals that no such thing happened.

So... in trying to "show" how evolution turns people away from God and morality, he denies God in a way that clearly violates the tenets of his own morality. Perhaps it's anti-evolutionism, not the theory of evolution, that is turning people from God.

I know most of the readers *here* don't particularly object to people being turned from God - but when you're in arguments with people who argue that evolution is bad "because it turns people from God", it might be nice to be able to point out that, in fact, it's rabid anti-evolutionism that has this effect.

I can't promise the thread will still be there; threads which are sufficiently embarassing sometimes go away. (I seem to recall a discussion of whether or not one of the moderators was using an alternative identity to post hateful stuff disappearing quite quickly.)

pz

He's trolling.

Do we need to have you help him set out hooks on other fora than the one he's using?

Viti

seebs...the guy is obviously trolling and I have simply ignored him. I am happy to jump in, but truthfully I can't even understand his argument...any ideas?

seebs

I was pointing it out because I thought people might want to be aware of the potential troll; having a reference to another place where it's been unmasked always helps.

seebs

Not really. There's no argument; it's just an attack on his perception of the "evils" of evolution, so far as I can tell. Mostly, just remember it the next time someone refers to this guy. Finding the post where he claimed that, having studied evolution, he came to believe there was no God, will certainly help when he's arguing how obvious it is that there's a God. It shoots his credibility. (As well it should!)

Bubba

I still can't figure out why evolution could be evil. Why would knowing the truth about something be evil?

I think that he may be lonely and want attention more than involvement in the actual creation/evolution debate.

Bubba

DNAunion

DNAunion: Seebs, can you really be this dense??

I didn't know something, so I asked a question.

All you (or anyone else) had to do was simply answer it. You didn't, and still haven't. Instead, you decided to try to lambast me. So where are YOUR morals and ethics?

Let me reemphasize something. I am NOT trolling. I am basically ignorant of philosophy, the study of ethics/morality, and have only the scantest idea of what Social Darwinism is/was. I even mentioned something along these lines in that thread from the other site. I asked a question because I didn't know something, figured that others had already gone over the matter and knew the answer, so was hoping to learn something, but instead I now have a swarm of people insulting me.

Now if you and everyone else knows how silly my devil's advocate position was, and its been decisively refuted years ago, then surely you guys should know where to find exactly the information I asked about. So why didn't you (or anyone else there) just give me a link to a FAQ that answers my question? If you had, it would have been a one-response, case-closed thread. But that would have been the high road, and you obviously prefer the alternative. Perhaps you too need to learn more about ethics/morality.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: DNAunion ]</p>

DNAunion

DNAunion: Lie or distortion #1. I'll split this up into multiple posts that expose his numerous lies/distortions.

First, I am not trying to build hatred of evolutionists. I don’t know the answer to a question I want to know the answer to, so I asked. See above.

Second, I mentioned several times that the thread is based on a PERSONAL dilemma I am facing. Something that I am looking for an answer to. I did not say that anyone else would lose their religion by accepting evolution (in fact, it is not evolution alone that has led me to reject religion).

Third, I did not say that there can be no basis at all for any moral system without faith in God. I am asking someone to show me that basis. Asking to be shown something is not equivalent to saying that it does not exist.

Fourth, so combined stuff. Even though I never bothered to think about what they were based on at the time, I had morals before I went to church for that year or so. I know it is not religion that gave me my morals. But, when I was going to church I had a firm foundation for those morals that I lacked before. Once I lost religion, and thought about the basis for my morals, I no longer found it. I am looking for a replacement. But note this says that MY foundation was a single thing and that I lost it. I didn’t say it is the ONLY foundation there can be and that without it there is none. If I am standing upon a pallet and someone removes it, I have lost my foundation. That doesn't mean everyone has or wil, nor does it mean that no other foundations exist.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: DNAunion ]</p>

Autonemesis

I'll bite. DNAunion, if I hit you over the head with a frying pan, would you cry out with pleasure?

Do you suppose anyone would? Can you imagine what another person would feel if they were hit over the head with a frying pan? If so, then you possess empathy. There's your basis for morality.

DNAunion

DNAunion: Another lie/distortiong.

If that is true, seebs, then by all means, post those links you found!

I bet you can’t. I have not expressed a religious belief in God in any of the posts I made in the past 2 years (give or take). About all you will find – which fails to make your point – is my saying a few times that the fine tuning of the Universe for life needs an explanation, and that two possible explanations are that (1) a supernatural designer created it, or that (2) there are trillions of universes of which only one or a few have life permitting combinations of values and that we must therefore finds ourselves in one with the values we indeed do find. That is not expressing a belief in God.