David Gould

Thinking about the concept of hell was what started me on the path to atheism. No Christian can explain the inherent 'fairness' of eternal suffering for a 4 year old child who did not believe. Or a mentally ill person. Or, as sci girl points out, people who never heard of Christ.

The only way you can say hell is fair is if you redefine fair to mean 'unjustly, horribly and unbelievably cruel, evil, vindictive and pointless'. Completely fucked up, in other words.

I guess the bright spot in the whole equation is that Christianity (and therefore the concept of Hell)is a lie.

Viti

Hi Buttercup, I think I have found my tongue again I am looking forward to your response to Lone Wolf.

I would like to discuss this statement

This is the reason I originally questioned Christianity, I could not reconcile a loving God with this supposed "truth".

My biggest quandry came after seeing the movie Ghandi...then learning more about him. He was tolerant and respectful of all people regardless of religion, and self sacraficing for the greater good...yet according to Christianity he is in hell. Around the same time they were about to execute Ted Bundy who claimed to have been "saved", the man was a conscienceless monster who I would not even rate as high as most animals, yet he is in heaven.

What kind of deity would play these kind of sick games with its creation? The answer is "no deity". I never questioned God's nature or mysteries, the simplest answer was the best in this case...there is no god...no all powerful, all knowing, being of conscience could possibly be this contradictory.

I ask you this...why are we only given one short lifetime to make the decision that effects our eternity? If as you believe we are somehow eternal beings, why would god choose this short aspect of that eternity as the time for this choice to be made? It amounts to making a child of 5 decide its career path.

Mad Kally

Yes Jane. You and Les Benton are on the "Highway To Hell"

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by buttercup:
<strong> Jeffrey Dahmer, if he truly accepted Christ and was sincere about it, it in heaven.</strong>

Are his psychopathic tendencies removed in some way during the conversion process, or will he want to kill people in heaven as well?

<strong>all the non-Christians who died on 9-11 will be in hell for all eternity. It might not seem fair, but in all entirety it is. They had time to learn and seek Christ.</strong>

Unless you're omniscient, you don't know that each and every person such an opportunity.

<strong>If they died, it was because God knew it was their time. </strong>

How does he decide when it's someone's "time"?

Megatron

I don't know about you guys but I really think I smell a troll here...

Puttz

[QUOTEexplain the inherent 'fairness' of eternal suffering for a 4 year old child who did not believe. Or a mentally ill person. Or, as sci girl points out, people who never heard of Christ.] [/QUOTE]

Just to let you know most Christians who hold to a view of Hell, admit that it only applies to people of the age to understand and recieve the gospel. 4 year olds will not be in hell, or the mentally ill, and as for the person who has never heard the gospel well God is the judge there. (I am sure most of this seems silly to point out, but I just hate it when people unfairly portray the Christian position for emotional appeal.) You can do better.

pug846

Nice to see that you speak for most Christians! I'm sure they appreciate it! Anything else that most Christians believe that some of us may not be aware of?

excreationist

So you mean they only inherit "original sin" once they reach a certain intelligence? So then if they died early, then might avoid hell, but if they survive a few more days and get a big more intelligent, they are then capable of going to hell?
And if they're too young to go to hell, where then do they go? Heaven? Purgatory? Limbo?
Where does it say in the Bible that you don't go to hell if you're not intelligent enough? And where does it say where those people go to?

Probably a Troll

[QUOTE]Originally posted by scigirl:
[QB]
How exactly is this "fair?" And why, if belief is the only thing you need, did Jesus focus so much time on healing people and helping them live better lives? If belief is enough, he shouldn't have needed to do all that other stuff, correct? One parable would have been sufficient.

I Reply:
Um, maybe not. What exactly is belief? Does belief mean some form of action? What are we supposed to believe in? Why shouldn't we throw you in the looney bin? Why believe you?

Seems to need more than a parable to me.

Scigirl:
There is no absolute proof that Jesus is the son of God.

Me:
And what do you mean by "absolute proof". If you mean an unshakable and unquestionable objective statement, I'm afraid one doesn't exist. Either of the divinity of Jesus, the existence of God, or the possibility that I am a butterfly dreaming that I am a troll. (or vice versa) Or even that I am a bored English teacher posting on an atheist newsgroup.

Scigirl:
He wasn't even good enough to convince all of the people during his own time.

Me:
No, but if someone CAN convince a lot of people, he must be correct, huh? So all I've gotta do is convince you to believe that I'm God and I can get you to believe whatever I want........ Okay, maybe not you, but maybe in California.......

Scigirl:
Yet people should just accept by 'faith' even though evidence often tells them otherwise?

Me:
Yep, like I believe that all matter is based in some nebulous concept called energy (yet I still stub my toe on energy in the dead of night), or that there was a really big bang bajillions of years ago that led to the vast variety of the universe, or what we call life spontaneously developed from a soup of amino acids, despite the fact that I have yet to see spontaneously developing life.

Scigirl:
Does God love sheep (people who just blindly accept the religion they were spoon-fed by their parents and only do the right thing to avoid hell) more than he loves thinkers and questioners of the world? If so, how fair is that?

Me:
1) God might love those he sends (or those that choose)to hell. We only hurt the ones we love.

2) The question is loaded to begin with. So when did you stop murdering theists in cold blood?

3) I think it's rather unfair that he doesn't love hateful racist murderous bastards as much as he loves goody-goodies. Of course, maybe my concept of what is fair is a little off.

Scigirl:
How about all the native tribes in africa, south america, and north america? Did these people suffer eternal Hell just because God did not feel like gracing their presence with his amazing Son? If it is that important to believe in Christ, why didn't God do a better job spreading his message--at least to all the continents? Or maybe he did, and more than one religion is true? Which is it, buttercup: 1)God didn't care about the native americans, implying he is not fair, or 2) God sent more than one messenger, implying that your religion is not the only truth?

Me:
False dichotomy. 3) (Christian answer) Y'know, I haven't the foggiest what happens to those who haven't heard.

Anyway, that's my bit, and I'm probably a troll

Cantankerous Cantanktion

C'mon people. It's pretty obvious that those faithful religious folk are really followers of evil ways. So let's just let them play their little games. WE know who will have the last laugh.