Freethought & Rationalism Archive

triplew00t · 08-07-2003, 12:52 PM

Oriented Pagan. I like that. Quite a bit actually.

I think JT is saying that what is horrible for one man (ie, no life after death is for you), is a relief for another (JT prefers to get off this cycle after one round. Whats the use in another?). You both have different views, and think the idea of the other's "best scenerio" is horrible, to the originator and holder of each idea, it is the best and most comforting. You, emotional, want to live on after death. JT and I do not. It is not that any of us are wrong in what we want. Its just as if I like red and you like green. I cant say "no you dont like green!" just because I despise that color. Nor can you say "you have to hate red" simply because you loathe it. To each his own.

A for once happy Nero

(PS I am adding both of you to my address book. Never done it before, so I have no idea how that works).

Infidelettante · 08-07-2003, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Huh? I don't understand Zen koans.

Refer to the exchange between and_d and me. I compared my understanding of the after life as foot prints on a beach. You require there be something after this life. I don't see the point.

I hope you have your desire, as for me I will be content to be only foot prints in the sand.

JT

andy_d · 08-08-2003, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JTVrocher

The impressions remain. The person is gone.

Do you realise you just described the Buddhist idea of rebirth?

triplew00t · 08-08-2003, 07:36 AM

Maybe I should look more closely at Buddhism then. <g>.

Nero

pmurray · 08-08-2003, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Let him keep it to himself, please. Pointless, harsh and uncalled-for.

I don't deceive myself about my own mortality, and I don't deceive myself about relations between the sexes.

That last line, however, is a quote from "Cheers". I think Norm said it.

pmurray · 08-08-2003, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by andy_d
I just thought "despise" was a bit of a strong word and thought you were being serious. My apologies.

Oops. Me too. Should have read all the posts before firing off my previous reply.

pmurray · 08-08-2003, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
The idea that death is the end of personhood is too bad to be true. It is a damnable doctrine, a heresy as much as is the Christian and Islamic heresy of eternal hell for unbelievers.

As an ex-christian, I find it a gentle comfort. Even when I was christian, realised that the idea of heaven was almost as terrifying as the idea of hell - the vertiginous finality of it. Almost as bad is going round and round forever, or my personality becoming one with the infinite: stuck like a fly in amber.

Gawdawful · 08-08-2003, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
I've never seen any "evidence for gods" accepted as such. It's as if the atheists had taken an oath not to accept any evidence for gods beforehand. I just can't think of any theistic argument that could possibly convince the atheist.

Evidence, actual evidence, something so clear it would leave nothing open to interpretation would work for me. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for said evidence though, almost 48 years of experience has shown me otherwise.

Warren in Oklahoma

triplew00t · 08-08-2003, 09:56 PM

I do not believe in an afterlife or God/s. I believe that what we do creates causes that are carried over forever. JT's foot prints. I do, however, believe in varying magical concepts, specifically feng shui and the Yijing. I have found both to be very helpful in my own life, and I cannot explain how they work. It may be all mental, it may be something supernatural. Who knows. Who cares. If it works, use it. You dont need to know how. The fact is that these fields are not testible by science because they effect the inner state of the participant. For example the oracle of the Yijing does not really predict the future, so much as it offers advice on how to act to acheive the desired result. And feng shui's effects are entirely subjective. The individual must decide if by arranging things in accord with them there is an improvement in that specific area of life that the arrangement delt with.

It must be noted that the only two texts that I accept to craft my Taoism around are the Daodejing and Yijing. All others I discard, as I have found them not in accord with these two. I discredit the Hua Ho Ching and such. I do not follow the interpretation of anyone but me, Chang Tzu included. As such, I find no real evidence of any belief on the part of Lao Tzu (and therefore in original Taoism) that included any life after death or Gods (despite what popular Taoism of today says). The very concepts of life after death and Gods seem to me to violate and corrupt all that Lao Tzu taught. The sage sees no birth or death, and therefore is fearless. Not because he knows he will live forever after death, but because he realizes that he is not special and must die sometime anyway. It is the way of nature, and fighting it will only make one miserable. All must go that way at their own time. Why worry about it or deny it. It does not need to be explained, it is obvious enough from what any man with eyes can observe. Calling in Gods or a spirit world or reincarnation in order to comfort one's self or seek some sort of fairness in the world is not needed. It is an obstruction to reality and as such should be removed. Stare reality in the eye, no matter how horrible it can seem sometimes. It is just reality, and no fantasy, no matter how great, can change it.

A contemplative Nero

emotional · 08-09-2003, 08:59 AM

I looked at Death and, behold, it was a lion pouncing upon me to devour me. Then I lifted up Faith, my shield, and overcame that enemy.

It is by faith I triumph over death. Where is death's sting? Where is the grave's victory? By the mercy of God I overcome that enemy.

Before I believed I was held by a spirit of fear. But now the spirit of God wipes every tear.

I had the fear that all life would be plunged into death terminal. But now I have faith that all life will be raised into a new life eternal.

Thanks be to God. His mercy endureth forever.

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08-07-2003, 12:52 PM	#41
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	Oriented Pagan. I like that. Quite a bit actually. I think JT is saying that what is horrible for one man (ie, no life after death is for you), is a relief for another (JT prefers to get off this cycle after one round. Whats the use in another?). You both have different views, and think the idea of the other's "best scenerio" is horrible, to the originator and holder of each idea, it is the best and most comforting. You, emotional, want to live on after death. JT and I do not. It is not that any of us are wrong in what we want. Its just as if I like red and you like green. I cant say "no you dont like green!" just because I despise that color. Nor can you say "you have to hate red" simply because you loathe it. To each his own. A for once happy Nero (PS I am adding both of you to my address book. Never done it before, so I have no idea how that works).

08-08-2003, 07:36 AM	#44
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	Maybe I should look more closely at Buddhism then. <g>. Nero

08-08-2003, 09:56 PM	#49
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	I do not believe in an afterlife or God/s. I believe that what we do creates causes that are carried over forever. JT's foot prints. I do, however, believe in varying magical concepts, specifically feng shui and the Yijing. I have found both to be very helpful in my own life, and I cannot explain how they work. It may be all mental, it may be something supernatural. Who knows. Who cares. If it works, use it. You dont need to know how. The fact is that these fields are not testible by science because they effect the inner state of the participant. For example the oracle of the Yijing does not really predict the future, so much as it offers advice on how to act to acheive the desired result. And feng shui's effects are entirely subjective. The individual must decide if by arranging things in accord with them there is an improvement in that specific area of life that the arrangement delt with. It must be noted that the only two texts that I accept to craft my Taoism around are the Daodejing and Yijing. All others I discard, as I have found them not in accord with these two. I discredit the Hua Ho Ching and such. I do not follow the interpretation of anyone but me, Chang Tzu included. As such, I find no real evidence of any belief on the part of Lao Tzu (and therefore in original Taoism) that included any life after death or Gods (despite what popular Taoism of today says). The very concepts of life after death and Gods seem to me to violate and corrupt all that Lao Tzu taught. The sage sees no birth or death, and therefore is fearless. Not because he knows he will live forever after death, but because he realizes that he is not special and must die sometime anyway. It is the way of nature, and fighting it will only make one miserable. All must go that way at their own time. Why worry about it or deny it. It does not need to be explained, it is obvious enough from what any man with eyes can observe. Calling in Gods or a spirit world or reincarnation in order to comfort one's self or seek some sort of fairness in the world is not needed. It is an obstruction to reality and as such should be removed. Stare reality in the eye, no matter how horrible it can seem sometimes. It is just reality, and no fantasy, no matter how great, can change it. A contemplative Nero

08-09-2003, 08:59 AM	#50
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	I looked at Death and, behold, it was a lion pouncing upon me to devour me. Then I lifted up Faith, my shield, and overcame that enemy. It is by faith I triumph over death. Where is death's sting? Where is the grave's victory? By the mercy of God I overcome that enemy. Before I believed I was held by a spirit of fear. But now the spirit of God wipes every tear. I had the fear that all life would be plunged into death terminal. But now I have faith that all life will be raised into a new life eternal. Thanks be to God. His mercy endureth forever.

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