Freethought & Rationalism Archive

unregistered_user_1 · 08-31-2002, 06:11 PM

I've found, on Ray Comfort's site, this URL:
<a href="http://www.raycomfort.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=lwpstore&Produc t_Code=122&Category_Code=Books" target="_blank">Scientific Facts in the Bible</a> where he mentions several things that the bible was supposed to have found out about before science. What I'd like to know it, have secular scientists found some of this stuff out before then forgot it, has there been "post-hoc" rationalizations" on Comfort's page, or is this true?

I'm not looking for mistakes, I can find those myself. I'm looking for an analysis of the stuff found on the site, if there is any.

Utnapishtim · 08-31-2002, 06:28 PM

Well a lot of that stuff is the result of Comfort's interpretations of the Bible. That one about atoms is ridiculous. Also keep in mind that much of the Bible is written in a poetic style, which leaves things difficult to interpret: Literal, or poetic? I would take these claims as serious as the ones made about scientific discoveries in the Koran.

Btw, it's good to see someone else from saskatoon on the boards!

Jack the Bodiless · 09-02-2002, 08:50 AM

The Bible and Earth’s Free-float in Space:
As the Bible also says that the Earth rests upon "foundations", he's free to pick whichever he prefers.

The Scriptures Speak of an Invisible Structure:
Too vague to be meaningful.

The Bible Reveals that the Earth is Round:
This one is BS. The Bible was written by flat-Earthers. The verse refers either to a flat disk or the dome which covers it.

The Bible and the Science of Oceanography:
Currents would have been widely known to ancient mariners.

The Bible and Radio Waves:
OK, I'll be generous and say that (by coincidence) this verse could be interpreted as referring to radio waves. But why would God ask such a question? Does God communicate with his angels by radio? Presumably not. So this is something God doesn't do either, but humanity WILL do. Why cite it in a demonstration of how inferior humanity is to God?

The Bible and Entropy:
"Things wear out" is trivially true, and obvious.

The Bible and the Water Cycle:
The likely existence of the water cycle is pretty obvious to anyone who has seen a puddle evaporate. Water disappears into the sky, falls as rain etc. The alternative is an endless supply of new water and an endless removal of sea water: simpler to believe in a circulation.

The Bible and the First Law of Thermodynamics:
The "completeness" is obvious from the fact that dramatic creation events aren't still happening all around us. But he's wrong about the reason for the demise of the Steady-State theory: it wasn't ditched just because it contradicts the 1st law.

The Bible and Ship Dimensions:
So the Ark was sorta boat-shaped. So what?

The Bible and Meteorological Laws:
Same as with the water cycle. Without circulation, you need constant magical creation and destruction of air.

The Bible and Science:
Complete BS, of course. Science has disproved the Genesis creation myth.

Undercurrent · 09-02-2002, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by unregistered_user_1:
<strong>I'm not looking for mistakes, I can find those myself. I'm looking for an analysis of the stuff found on the site, if there is any.</strong>

This is why, when the Romans tried to annex Judea, God's Chosen People (tm) sucessfully fought them off with their tanks and guns and bombs and aircraft, and then went out to conquer Rome in retaliation. It was awfully silly of the Romans to attack such a technologically superior enemy, rather than reserving their strength for the great many backwater territories to which they were technically superior. Would have certainly saved them the embarassment of being an occupied territory of Judea for so many years.

/sarcasm

I remeber hearing from Skip Heizig (BTW, is he known outside of northern New Mexico?) that the bible talks about atoms and molecules. I forget the verse, but it was something like. "That which is seen contains that which is not seen." Needless to say, it was a bit of a stretch.

m.

Fortuna · 09-03-2002, 06:42 AM

OK. here is another view of it, a post from over at THC.

Quote:

The ancient Hebrews believed that the world (earth) was flat and square(with occasional mountains) , and that the sky (or "firmament") was a solid dome above this flat earth. The area above the firmament was the heavens or the home of the God(s) ("Aleim" {god} as used in plural form in genesis). As they had no knowledge of the evaporation and condensation properties of water and air, they surmised that there were windows in the firmament so that rain, hail and dew could be poured on the earth by the gods, and that the stars were heavenly bodies (literally !),"hosts of heaven", that is,gods and angels. All of this is evident from a simple reading of the bible. The later chapters of the bible often reference and further define this model as described in Genesis 1. 1rst century CE Jewish historian Flavius Josephus also refers to this model during his paraphrasing of the Torah in his "Antiquities of the Jews"(93CE).
This was not unusual, and was similar to the beliefs held by other cultures in the eastern Mediterranean area. (Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrian).
In the bible the firmament is also referred to and synonymous with "sky", "heaven" or "heavens","vault" and "circle of earth" (this circle refers to the firmament or dome, and is apparently not a knowledge of a spherical earth. (See below - Isaiah 40 & Sirach 24:5).
The ancient Hebrews believed that the firmament was solid. ("..the skies, hard as a molten mirror" Job 37:18 NRSV), as later did Flavius Josephus who referred to it as "crystalline firmament with windows to accommodate the rain and dews" (Antiquities 1).
The bible states that God "set" the sun, moon and stars in this firmament("God made 2 great lights...he made the stars also, and set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light to the earth" Gen 1:16-17 KJV). In Job it states that the God(s) walked on the firmament; "and he (God) walks upon the dome of heaven" Job 22:14

It was also believed, as did many cultures in the Eastern Med area, that the firmament of the sky was supported by pillars.("The pillars of heaven tremble" Job 26:11 KJV) Second Samuel called the pillars "foundations" as in "the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he(god) was wroth(angry)" 2 Sam 22:8 KJV). In Egyptian mythology, it was believed that there were "Zam-Supports" that held up the sky (the Pyramid texts). In Babylonian mythology, gilgamesh travels to the end of the earth to climb the pillars to heaven (Gilgamesh Tales). In the poems of the Greek Homer, Atlas supported the pillars that held the heavens and earth apart (Homer)
As to the windows of heaven and the idea of God pouring the rain ;
First god "separated the waters above from the waters below" Gen 1:1 KJV, (Gods needed an initial source of water).
"and the windows of heaven were opened, and the rain was upon the earth" Gen 7:11 KJV
"the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained" Gen 8:2 KJV
"says the lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing" Malachi 3:10 KJV
The book of Psalms and Job are even more fascinating on this particular, where it is stated that there are storehouses in heaven for wind, snow and hail ;
"He brings out the wind from his storehouses in heaven" Psalms 135:7 NRSV
"Have you entered the storehouses (in heaven) of the snow, or have you seen the storehouses of the hail" Job 38:22 NRSV
"the lord casted down great stones from heaven upon them...and they died" Joshua 10:11 KJV
Interestingly, in the book of Isaiah the dome of the sky is referred to as "the circle of the earth" as ; "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" Isaiah 40:22 KJV. It is apparent here that the "circle of the earth" refers to the dome of the sky, or firmament. We find no indication here of the knowledge of a spherical earth. The apocryphal book of Sirach describes this as "the circuit of the vault of heaven".
An interesting contradiction is found in Job. In Job 9:6 KJV we find ;
6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.

So, here, the earth is described as shaking out of place, and the pillars tremble.
(also, notice that the constellations of Orion and Pleiades are referred to ??? )

Then in 26:7-11 KJV;
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.
10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
Verse 7 states the earth as hung upon nothing ? This idea of the earth supported by nothing or the sky not supported by pillars was first proposed by the Persian Zoroaster, inthat the God Ohrmazd (Ahura Mazda); "I created the sky without pillars" (writings of Zoroaster, "Ahura Mazda and Zoroastranism").
Other revealing bible verses ;
These beliefs is also found in much of the new testament.
Rev 7:1 - refers to 4 corners of earth),
Rev 1:16-17 and 9:1-2- refers to a star as an angel who falls to earth, hosts of heaven
Mark 13:27,Matthew 24:30

Surprisingly, it was the heathen Greeks who first proposed that the earth was spherical, first by Socrates in the 5th century BCE. Later Aristocrates of Samos (300-230 BCE) proposed that the earth was a sphere and traveled around the sun. Eratosthenes (176-94bce) was the first person to measure the circumference of the earth. His work is known from the writings of Pappus of Alexandria.

Oops - Edited out accidental double paste

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Fortuna ]</p>

Clutch · 09-03-2002, 07:04 AM

unregistered, utnapishtim,

Hey you guys, give the other residents of Saskatoon a turn on those two computers!

(Clutch -- former Saskatchewanian)

Marduk · 09-03-2002, 02:45 PM

"OK, I'll be generous and say that (by coincidence) this verse could be interpreted as referring to radio waves. But why would God ask such a question? Does God communicate with his angels by radio? "

Yes, if you believe the Angels are Aliens theory.

Let's not foget Austin 3:16
"and it came to pass that Energy is equal to Mass times the velocity of light squared"

Grumpy · 09-03-2002, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless:
The Bible and the Water Cycle:
The likely existence of the water cycle is pretty obvious to anyone who has seen a puddle evaporate.[/QB]

And what does this look like, when a puddle evaporates? Nothing. It took quite a while for evaporation to catch on. <a href="http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/codex/art.html" target="_blank">Leonardo DaVinci</a> is credited with correctly describing the hydrologic cycle, with one big exception: he believed water returned to mountaintops via veins within the Earth. Evaporation was the missing element in his unworkable theory.

Strangely, this idea harmonizes with Scriptures. Stranger still (and this is the case with all the alleged Science Facts of the Bible), if evaporation had been prefigured in the Bible, it would not have been undiscovered until the 17th century -- because natural philosphers would have gleaned their understanding of the world from Scripture!

09-03-2002, 05:45 PM

Is 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

People who quote this often omit the second part because they do understand it.

Now how is the heavens like a tent to live in?

The heavens is a dome shaped and resting on the circle of the earth which is flat ie a disc. At least that is what they believe in those days.

See the book of Enoch.

09-03-2002, 05:50 PM

Quote:

"All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, there they return again" (Ecclesiastes 1:7). This statement alone may not seem profound.

Not only is it not profound it is also wrong.

The statement implies that if the water did not go back that the seas would fill up.

Wrong!

If the water did not go back the rivers would dry up.

08-31-2002, 06:11 PM	#1
unregistered_user_1 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just north of here. Posts: 544	Scientific "facts" in the Bible? I've found, on Ray Comfort's site, this URL: <a href="http://www.raycomfort.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=lwpstore&Produc t_Code=122&Category_Code=Books" target="_blank">Scientific Facts in the Bible</a> where he mentions several things that the bible was supposed to have found out about before science. What I'd like to know it, have secular scientists found some of this stuff out before then forgot it, has there been "post-hoc" rationalizations" on Comfort's page, or is this true? I'm not looking for mistakes, I can find those myself. I'm looking for an analysis of the stuff found on the site, if there is any.

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08-31-2002, 06:28 PM	#2
Utnapishtim Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 330	Well a lot of that stuff is the result of Comfort's interpretations of the Bible. That one about atoms is ridiculous. Also keep in mind that much of the Bible is written in a poetic style, which leaves things difficult to interpret: Literal, or poetic? I would take these claims as serious as the ones made about scientific discoveries in the Koran. Btw, it's good to see someone else from saskatoon on the boards!

09-02-2002, 08:50 AM	#3
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	The Bible and Earth’s Free-float in Space: As the Bible also says that the Earth rests upon "foundations", he's free to pick whichever he prefers. The Scriptures Speak of an Invisible Structure: Too vague to be meaningful. The Bible Reveals that the Earth is Round: This one is BS. The Bible was written by flat-Earthers. The verse refers either to a flat disk or the dome which covers it. The Bible and the Science of Oceanography: Currents would have been widely known to ancient mariners. The Bible and Radio Waves: OK, I'll be generous and say that (by coincidence) this verse could be interpreted as referring to radio waves. But why would God ask such a question? Does God communicate with his angels by radio? Presumably not. So this is something God doesn't do either, but humanity WILL do. Why cite it in a demonstration of how inferior humanity is to God? The Bible and Entropy: "Things wear out" is trivially true, and obvious. The Bible and the Water Cycle: The likely existence of the water cycle is pretty obvious to anyone who has seen a puddle evaporate. Water disappears into the sky, falls as rain etc. The alternative is an endless supply of new water and an endless removal of sea water: simpler to believe in a circulation. The Bible and the First Law of Thermodynamics: The "completeness" is obvious from the fact that dramatic creation events aren't still happening all around us. But he's wrong about the reason for the demise of the Steady-State theory: it wasn't ditched just because it contradicts the 1st law. The Bible and Ship Dimensions: So the Ark was sorta boat-shaped. So what? The Bible and Meteorological Laws: Same as with the water cycle. Without circulation, you need constant magical creation and destruction of air. The Bible and Science: Complete BS, of course. Science has disproved the Genesis creation myth.

09-03-2002, 07:04 AM	#6
Clutch Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 3,751	unregistered, utnapishtim, Hey you guys, give the other residents of Saskatoon a turn on those two computers! (Clutch -- former Saskatchewanian)

09-03-2002, 02:45 PM	#7
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"OK, I'll be generous and say that (by coincidence) this verse could be interpreted as referring to radio waves. But why would God ask such a question? Does God communicate with his angels by radio? " Yes, if you believe the Angels are Aliens theory. Let's not foget Austin 3:16 "and it came to pass that Energy is equal to Mass times the velocity of light squared"

09-03-2002, 05:45 PM	#9
NOGO2 Guest Posts: n/a	Is 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. People who quote this often omit the second part because they do understand it. Now how is the heavens like a tent to live in? The heavens is a dome shaped and resting on the circle of the earth which is flat ie a disc. At least that is what they believe in those days. See the book of Enoch.

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