Carrie

So here's another one folks. I wonder how Christians explain the fact that the following things did not exist in the Old Testament, but did exist in the New Testament? Hmmm, I wonder what happened during the 400 year gap between Malachi and Matthew?

-- Hell, demon possession, and the super power of Satan did not exist in the Old Testament. (And if Hell is such a big deal, shouldn’t the Old Testament Jews have known about it, so they could have been sure to try and avoid it? If Satan was prowling
around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour that whole time, shouldn’t they have also been warned about that? And if demons were possessing people in O.T. times, how did they not notice it? Then all of a sudden, in the N.T, the people were believing in all this stuff, like it was no big transition).

-- Heaven. (There was no reward of heaven in the O.T. They didn’t even know there WAS a heaven. Then in the N.T, forgiveness of sin and the reward of heaven was supposed to be “good news.” But, why would it have been good news? Because ALONG WITH heaven, comes HELL, which they didn’t know about either! So suddenly they had to be saved from a hell they didn’t even know existed, and they found out that most people go there. How is that good news? It’s like, “Oh great, I get to go to heaven, but my whole family is going to roast forever, and I have to spend my life trying to save them and everyone else. That sucks.” Instead of heaven, I’d prefer to just die, rather than have almost everyone else burn in hell for eternity. Everyone just dying would be better. (See Romans 9:3) - Paul said, “I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. I wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. For theirs to be the adoption as sons, theirs the divine glory...etc.” So Paul would go to hell himself, rather than have all the Jews be damned.

-- Baptism. (There was no baptism in the O.T. at all. Then suddenly in the N.T, people accepted baptism as a way to get forgiveness of sins. Even John’s baptism was good for forgiveness. Mark 1:4 says, “John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan river”).

None of these things were taught as NEW teachings by Jesus (or John or that matter). These things were just mentioned as if the people already knew all about them. And that’s probably because they DID know all about these things. They learned about them from other cultures, during that 400 year “silence” in the Bible where God wasn’t telling them anything!

Butters

Well get rady Carrie, because some Christian is going to come in here and tell you that all these things ARE in the OT. And trying to follow their convoluted, rational for this, will cross your eyes and make your head hurt!

anime

Concerning "Hell":

"Sheol". Hebrew, Sheõl.

This Is Appendix 35 From The Companion Bible.

The first occurrence of this word is in Genesis 37:35, where it is rendered "grave". It occurs sixty-five times in the Hebrew of the Old Testament; and only by studying each passage by itself can the student hope to gather the Biblical usage of the word. All heathen or traditional usages are not only worthless, but mischievous. The following are all the passages where the word "Sheol" occurs, with the rendering in each passage indicated thus:

1. = grave, 2. = pit, 3. = hell.

1. Genesis 37:35.
1. Genesis 42:38.
1 Genesis 44:29,31.
2. Numbers 16:30,33.
3. Deuteronomy 32:22.
1. 1Samuel 2:6.
3. 2Samuel 22:6.
1. 1Kings 2:6,9.
1. Job 7:9.
3. Job 11:8.
1. Job 14:13.
1. Job 17:13.
2. Job 17:16.
1. Job 21:13.
1. Job 24:19.
3. Job 26:6.
1. Psalm 6:5.
3. Psalm 9:17.
3. Psalm 16:10.
3. Psalm 18:5.
1. Psalm 30:3.
1. Psalm 31:17.
1. Psalm 49:14,14,15.
3. Psalm 55:15. (margin grave).
3. Psalm 86:13. (margin grave).
3. Psalm 88:3.
1. Psalm 89:48.
3. Psalm 116:3.
3. Psalm 139:8.
1. Psalm 141:7.
1. Proverbs 1:12.
3. Proverbs 5:5.
3. Proverbs 7:27.
3. Proverbs 9:18.
3. Proverbs 15:11,24.
3. Proverbs 23:14.
3. Proverbs 27:20.
1. Proverbs 30:16.
1. Ecclesiastes 9:10.
1. Song of Solomon 8:6.
3. Isaiah 5:14.
3. Isaiah 14:9 (margin grave).
1. Isaiah 14:11.
3. Isaiah 14:15.
3. Isaiah 28:15,18.
1. Isaiah 38:10.
1. Isaiah 38:18.
3. Isaiah 57:9.
1. Ezekiel 31:15.
3. Ezekiel 31:16,17.
3. Ezekiel 32:21,27.
1. Hosea 13:14,14.
3. Amos 9:2.
3. Jonah 2:2 (margin grave).
3. Habakkuk 2:5.

As meaning "THE grave," it is to be distinguished from keber, A grave, or burying-place (from kabar, to bury, first occurrence Genesis 23:4): and bõr, a pit, generally hewn in the rock, hence used of a cistern (Genesis 37:20) or a dugeon, and etc., when dry. (See note below on the word "well" in Genesis 21:19.)

Concerning demon posession:

1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Compare 2 Samuel 24 with 1 Chron. 21. By Hebrew idiom (and also by modern usage) a person is said to do that which he permits to be done. For examples, see Ex. 4:21; 5:22. Jer. 4:10. Ezek. 14:9; 20:25. Matt. 11:25; 13:11. Rom. 9:18; 11:7, 8. 2 Thess. 2:11. God’s permission, but Satan’s suggestion.

Concerning the super power of Satan:

See Job chapters 1 and 2.

Concerning Baptism:

Annointing was accompanied by washing or immersion (Ex. 29:4-7; 40:12; Lev. 8:6).

Magus55

As anime pointed out Hell is all over the OT, its just not called Hell because there is no "hell" word in Hebrew. Sheol means pit which is what Judaism uses to describe Hell.

Baptism is a Jewish act, Christians adopted it from the OT. Mikveh is the hebrew word, which means ritual immersion, and Baptism is from the Greek or Latin. Baptism existed before Jesus did. Same thing, different name.

happyboy

don't you just love it how God bamboozled His own chosen people for century upon century, letting lucifer tear them apart spiritually, all because He felt like waiting until the romans ruled the world?

ahhhh, that God, always the prankster He is!

happyboy, who's proud of God's sense of humor

Carrie

I'll be getting to this in a while (I'm a bit busy the next couple days). It's pretty easy to rip apart of course, but I want to do so thoroughly. But hey, thanks for your effort Anime. That was pretty detailed.

Bobzammel

In Hebrew, Sheol is described mainly in the bible as a vague abode for pretty much all the dead. See Ecclesiates, Psalms and Job, in which the righteous lament their eventual going down into Sheol. In any case, there is no mention of reward in Heaven--just reward on Earth, as seen in the Law books which promise Earthly prosperity. Some individuals such as Elijah apparentally ascend to Heaven, but note that they do not die. There are a few references to ressurection in the OT, mainly in Daniel, but I'll go into this down here.
As for Satan, the word Satan, or Ha-Satan, means literally "accusser". Basically the "Satan" in Job is the accuser in the divine court. It is not until after Greek and Persian influence enters Judaism following the exile that Satan begins to become more of a totally evil, fallen being. In particular, the character of Satan in the NT owes a lot to the Persian demon Ahriman, especially the allusions to the lion, serpent, and the term "Prince of this World".
You will also notice that Christianity seems to attack physical states of being. "The world" and "The flesh" are viewed in a negative sense. This is not found in the OT, but has roots I'll go into later.
The Evil spirits/demons frequently mentioned in the OT are more usually called "Familiar spirits", not demons or what not.

The main reason new stuff keeps showing up in the Bible is due primarily to changes within Israel itself. The first influences for the religion probably spun from Caananite religion and also the Sumerians, although there might have been some Egyptian stuff in this as well. Genesis, Job, some of the Psalms and other elements have vast similarities to Ugaratic and Sumerian texts. Creatures such as Lillith, Azazeal, Behemoth, Levithian and others were all members of the Caananite mythology--and *all* are mentioned in the bible.(And not as foreign gods like Baal or Asherah). The Mosaic law is really not at all different from various other laws.
Second we have a religious reform which streamlines the Monotheism of the Israelites. This also is the period in which the multiple religious texts start to come together. In addition the Book of Deuturonomy is written during this time.
Eventually the Jewish people are brought into captivity, but are freed by the Persians. The Persians, like the Hebrews have a Monotheism-Zoroastaranism-which deals with the battle between two Gods-Ahura Mazda and Ahriman, as well as the concepts of apocalyptic final Judgement and eternal reward. In addition there are spirits who are more defined than the Hebrew's angels(If you read the bible carefully, Angels in most of the OT are actually manifestations of God himself-"Angel of the Lord" might be a later edit). Following the Persian era, Angels suddenly get names and personalities(See Daniel) Demons and evil spirits, escathology, the concept of a future saviour, and ressurection become themes in Hebrew literature, especially among the Pharisees and Essenes.
Eventually the Hebrews also came into contact with the Greeks and their philosophy, including the concept of spirit over the weak body, or Gnosticism. Gnosticism, mixed in with the ressurection concept, eventually might have influenced the Flesh vs. Spirit theology which is prevelant in Gospel of John and the epistles.
As for Jesus himself, his ideas are not at all different from other Jewish revolutionaries of the time, such as Hillel(Jesus seems to almost qoute Hillel at some points) and particuarly the Essenes. It is also possible in addition to the above references that the Gospels have roots in Mithraism(A form of Zoroastaranism) Buddhism(The humble and compassionate sage has some uncanny similarities in some ways to Jesus in life story and sayings) and some of the dying/ressurecting "Mystery" cults popular at the time.

Bobzammel

Regarding the "3" uses. In most of these Sheol is described as the abode of the dead, or equated with death. There is no reference however to punishment, weeping/gnashing, or fire. Just non-existence, really.


3. Deuteronomy 32:22.

The "Fire" God is describing is not only in Sheol but also covers the entire Earth itself. Therefore it does not refer to hell. The passage in question deals with the Babylon exile; read the entire chapter please.



3. 2Samuel 22:6.

This passage deals mainly with David fearing his death. Nothing to do with fiery punishment.


3. Job 11:8.

Once again, it refers to Sheol not as eternal punishment, but as an abode of the dead.




3. Job 26:6.

Once again, refers to abode of dead, not punishment.


3. Psalm 9:17.

This Psalm deals mainly with the victory of a king over several enemies. They have already been punished by their destruction(Caananites)? Hence they have gone to Sheol, the grave. No mention of future afterlife. However this one is closer to hell than usual.

3. Psalm 16:10.

Simply means that the Psalmist has been saved from being killed.

3. Psalm 18:5.

See above.


3. Psalm 55:15. (margin grave).

Threathening death again. 22-23 of this Psalm deal with them dying because of it.

3. Psalm 86:13. (margin grave).

Once again, saved from death.

3. Psalm 88:3.

The Psalmist is lamenting his eventual death.



3. Psalm 116:3.

Sheol once again aquated with death.

3. Psalm 139:8.

This one seems to mention a possible ascension to heaven, but then again I mentioned that ascension seemed for only a few individuals....it's interesting that the Psalmist regards God as being in "Sheol" as well! So much for Hell being seperation from God.



3. Proverbs 5:5.

Once again Sheol seems to be aquated with death. No punishment.

3. Proverbs 7:27.

Death again.

3. Proverbs 9:18.

Refers to the dead.

3. Proverbs 15:11,24.

Deal with avoiding death.

3. Proverbs 23:14.

The other passage also states that "They will not die". Sheol once again refers to death.



3. Proverbs 27:20.

This one is kind of strange...



3. Isaiah 5:14.

Refers to Jerusalem being destroyed. No punishment.


3. Isaiah 14:9 (margin grave).

Refers to someone being dead. Maggots and worms eat corpses. It does not say this will go on forever.


3. Isaiah 14:15.

Stating death.

3. Isaiah 28:15,18.

Sheol once again refers to death.

3. Isaiah 57:9.


Not sure about this one.


3. Ezekiel 31:16,17.

Refers in earlier passages to *all* mortals, in addition to the defeated Egyptians. Once again no punishment. Interestingly the uncircumcised also belong in Hell. That's bad news for anti-Circumsision Christians.

3. Ezekiel 32:21,27.

More about dead warriors.

3. Amos 9:2.

Refers to people not able to get into Heaven or Sheol, although they try.

3. Jonah 2:2 (margin grave).

The reference to Sheol seems to refer mainly to the fish, since it says "belly of the fish".

3. Habakkuk 2:5.

Sheol used as metaphor.

Carrie

Anime,

Let’s start in Ecclesiastes:

ECCLESIASTES 3:21 -- King Solomon said, “WHO KNOWS IF THE SPIRIT OF MAN RISES UPWARD AND IF THE SPIRIT OF THE ANIMAL GOES DOWN INTO THE EARTH?”

So, even King Solomon did not know if there was a heaven or hell! He didn’t know what happened after death.

But you were saying that the #3’s mean Hell, or THE grave, not just A grave. But to me, it seems that THE grave, means Death.

I think, in the #3’s, it is Death that is being talked about. NOT a place of eternal burning. Death means to be DEAD, no longer in existence.

Even in Dt. 32:22, I don’t think it means that people go to a place of eternal burning. It means that God is pissed off, and his wrath is so great that it burns even down to the realm of death - meaning figuratively that God’s wrath is so great, that it will burn up the whole earth, and beyond. Moses was saying that God will send calamity, and his wrath is terrible. It means that God would send calamity on the wicked, and they would die. This scripture says, “a fire kindled by God’s wrath” will devour “the earth and it’s harvests, and set afire the foundations of the mountains.” IT DOESN’T SAY THAT “PEOPLE” WILL BE DEVOURED BY THIS FIRE. Besides, this is just a SONG of Moses. It doesn’t mean his song lyrics are fact. If you take his lyrics as fact, then you have to take
Solomon’s words in his poem as fact - “Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward?”

2 Sam 22:6 - I don’t see how this means a place of eternal fire and torment. It means that David almost died.

Job 11:8 Just because Job said that God’s mysteries are “deeper than the depths of the grave,” that doesn’t mean Job is speaking of hell and saying that hell is a deep dark place. Job is saying that God’s mysteries are unfathomable, and so is death. Also, Job said that God’s mysteries are “higher than the heavens,” meaning higher than the sky and stars, because Job is not saying Heaven, because heavens with an “s” is plural, and Heaven is
singular. So Job is just saying that God’s mysteries cannot be reached, up high, or down low. Job is speaking in physical terms - so the depths of the grave, mean just really deep down in the earth (they knew you could dig and dig and never find an end), and the height of the heavens, means really high up in the sky (which seems to have no end). God’s mysteries are greater than those heights or depths.

Job 26:6 “The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters and all that live in them. Death (Sheol) is naked before God, Destruction (Abaddon) lies uncovered.” So is that Job expressing his feelings, or is Job stating a fact? What is the fact? That dead people underwater and in the water are in deep anguish? He didn’t say the dead “in the fire” are in deep anguish. Besides, Job also said to God, “Why do you not pardon my offenses, and forgive my sins? For I will soon lie down in the dust; you (meaning God) will search for me, but I will be no more.” So here is Job stating a fact, or expressing his feelings? Did God really not forgive Job, and leave Job to the dust, so God could not find him?

Job 9:22 says, “He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.” Job also said, in 9:17 that, “He would crush me with a storm, and multiply my wounds for no reason.” So is everything that Job says a fact, or is it his feelings? He’s expressing his feelings. God does not really multiply wounds for no reason. So Job 26:6 is Job expressing his feelings too. Feelings of anguish. Even the dead are in anguish. It doesn’t say, only the wicked dead people are in anguish. It means all the dead. Job is just expressing anguish.

Psalm 9:17 All of the psalms are David (or someone else) expressing himself. What David says is not meant to be taken as fact. Psalm 10:1 “Why O Lord do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?” Does God do that for real, or is
David just expressing himself? So in Psalm 9:17 David says, “the wicked return to the grave.” That just means that the wicked will die, because of their wickedness, God kills them. In Psalm 6:5 David is not wanting to die. Remember all the battles David was in. He said, “My eyes grow weak with sorrow, they fail because of all my foes.” So in vs. 4 and 5 David says, “Turn, O Lord, and deliver me; save me because of your unfailing love. NO ONE remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave?” So here, David is asking God not to let him die, because everyone dies at some point, but what’s the use if they won’t remember God?

Psalm 16:10 - David was just saying that God would not let him (God’s faithful one, see the footnote) die and see decay. David was asking for God to keep him safe, and then David was assured that God would in fact, keep him safe, physically, and not let him die.

Psalm 55:15 - Sounds to me like David just wants his evil enemies to be buried alive. He wants ‘em to suffer.

Psalm 86:13 - God delivered David and so David didn’t die and get buried 6ft under. A band of ruthless men sought David’s life, but David knew God would save him since God is compassionate. Then again David asked God to save him and show him a sign of his goodness, so his enemies could be shamed. David is asking God not to let him die, but rather to let him live and have victory. David is not asking God to save him from Hell. David probably didn’t think he’d be going to a Hell. David just wanted to be saved from dying.

Psalm 88:3 - David would not have meant that his life was drawing near to Hell. David just felt like he was about to die. Verse 15 he says, “from my youth I have been afflicted and close to death.” And true, David lived such a life that he could have died at many points in his life (think David and Goliath). But that didn’t mean that he was close to Hell when he fought Goliath.

** THIS PSALM IS ESPECIALLY INTERESTING, because David says, “I am counted among those who go down to the pit; I am like a man without strength. I am set apart with the dead, like the slain who lie in the grave, whom you remember no more, who are cut off from your care. You have put me in the lowest pit, in
the darkest depths. Your wrath lies heavily upon me; you have overwhelmed me with all your waves.” Then he says, “You have taken me from my closest friends...my eyes are dim with grief. I call to you O Lord, every day. I spread out my hands to you. Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead rise up and praise you?” So should David have been worried about going to hell here? IF DAVID PRAYED TO GOD EVERY DAY, AND HE HADN’T DONE ANYTHING WRONG HERE, WHY WOULD HE BE FEARING HELL? David just didn’t want to die, and David asked God to spare his life, because God could not be praised from the grave. DAVID IS ACTUALLY SAYING WHAT HE THINKS HAPPENS TO THE DEAD: David said, “I AM SET APART WITH THE DEAD...WHOM YOU REMEMBER NO MORE, WHO ARE CUT OFF FROM YOUR CARE.”

Psalm 51 is where David is expressing sorrow to God over his adultery with Bathsheeba. In this psalm, David does not express fear of death or hell because of his sin. He simply asks God’s forgiveness, because he did not want to be separated from the presence of God, and did not want God’s Holy Spirit taken from him. David had a close relationship with God, and didn’t want to lose that. David wanted to experience joy and gladness again. ACCORDING TO MAGUS, DAVID COULDN’T HAVE BEEN WORRIED ABOUT LOSING THE HOLY SPIRIT (which is a seal that guarantees heaven) BECAUSE MAGUS DOESN’T THINK IT IS POSSIBLE TO LOSE THE HOLY SPRIT ONCE YOU HAVE IT. The Holy Spirit to David, was the Spirit of joy and gladness - God’s spirit that he had in him. When weighed down by guilt, your joy and gladness goes away. David wanted his guilt removed by asking God’s forgiveness.

Psalm 139:8 - “If I make my bed in the grave (hell), you (God) are there.” So sounds like you mean to say that God is there in hell too. And that’s not true. God is in heaven. So what this means is, there is no place you can hide from God. He says, “If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me.” So he’s saying that whether he goes into the sky like a bird, or whether he dies and is buried, God is there, in the sky and in the earth.

Isaiah 14 verses 9,11,14 -- I really don’t think this has anything to do with Satan or Hell. It’s a prophecy about Babylon. The oppressor that will come to an end, is Babylon. And everything else in this prophecy is a prophecy about Babylon, not a prophecy about Satan. So all that talk about the grave meant that Babylon was going to be brought down and would come to an end.

Jonah 2:2 -- Jonah couldn’t have been saying, “from the depths of HELL I called for help.” Jonah hadn’t died in the belly of the whale. He almost died, so what he actually said was, “from the depths of the grave (his grave in the whale) I called for help.”

(AS FOR ALL THE OTHER #3’s YOU MENTIONED, THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT DEATH OR DYING, NOT HELL).


DEMON POSSESSION AND SATAN’s SUPER POWER

1 Sam 16:14 An evil spirit from the Lord tormented him, but that doesn’t mean he was internally POSSESSED by this demon.

2 Sam 24 and 1 Chron 21 -- I don’t see what these have to do with demon possession. 1 Chron 21 says that “Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.” Okay, so Satan incited David to take a census, but it was God who brought destruction on the Israelites (70,000 died), because of something David had done. Well that’s fair isn’t it ?! And it wasn’t Satan who did the killing, it was God. All Satan did
was provoke David to take a census. Ooooh, the evil census. So here, Satan had power to tempt David, but it’s God who seems to be to be the bad guy, since he could have stopped Satan from tempting David, and God never would have had to kill 70,000 men
for something David did. I’m sure God knew in advance that if he let Satan tempt David, then David would sin, and then God would kill 70,000 men. Sounds like God just wanted to kill folks.

In the OT, all Satan does is tempt, but God gives Satan permission to tempt, and gives him permission to destroy, or God does the destroying himself. Satan is a puppet of God. Satan comes and says, “Hey God, can I tempt this guy and then kick his ass?” And God tells him yes or no. Satan can’t go ahead and do it without God’s okay.

Exodus 4:21 - What does that have to do with demon possession or Satan? God was the one who hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Satan didn’t suggest it. Yes, God is the one who decides what people do. Pharaoh’s heart was hardened because God said he would harden it, so that Pharaoh would not let the Israelites go. If God hadn’t hardened Pharaoh’s heart, Pharaoh might have let the Israelites go.

Exodus 5:22 - What does this have to do with Satan or demon possession? It’s just Moses asking God why he has brought trouble upon them, because ever since Moses went to Pharaoh, the Pharaoh caused trouble. I guess God allowed Pharaoh to cause trouble, since God was the one who hardened his heart. But if God saw the suffering of the Israelites, and wanted them to be freed from slavery, why did he make it so difficult for them? Why not just have Pharaoh let them go? Guess God just wanted to kill some Egyptians, and their babies too.

Jeremiah 4:10 -- “Sovereign Lord, how completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our throats.” Okay, so your point is that God deceives his people. That’s terrible. But what does that have to do with my point, that Satan did not have super power in the OT and demon possession did not exist?

Ezekiel 14:9 -- Same thing. Nothing to do with my point.
Ez 20:25 -- And not only do these scriptures have nothing to do with my point, but you are pointing out to me lots of terrible things about God! And the rest of the scriptures you wrote down are in the New Testament, and I’m not concerned about that. I already know that the N.T. talks about demon possession and
Satan.

ALSO, WHEN SOMEONE WAS SICK OR HAD A DISEASE IN THE OLD
TESTAMENT, IT WAS CALLED A SICKNESS OR A DISEASE, IT WAS NOT CALLED DEMON POSSESSION, NOR WAS IT USUALLY BLAMED ON DEMONS OR SATAN. GOD WAS THE ONE WHO CAUSED SUCH DISEASE AND SICKNESS. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, DISEASE AND SICKNESS WERE OFTEN DEMON POSSESSION. And I suppose you say that demon possession no longer exists today because Jesus stopped it or something. However, the apostles, after Jesus rose from the dead, drove out demons. Or maybe you’ll say that there still is demon possession today, and modern exorcism really works.


SATAN’s POWER

Job 1 and 2. Just because Satan was allowed to tempt Job, doesn’t mean Satan had super power in the O.T. God was the one who asked Satan, “Did you consider my servant Job?” And then Satan said that if God stretched out his hand to strike everything Job had, then Job would curse God to his face. So God gave Satan the okay to do the destruction. But Satan couldn’t do anything without God’s okay.

HOWEVER, in the NEW TESTAMENT, it seems that Satan has a lot more power. He is talked about a lot more. He is more threatening. In the New Testament, it doesn’t seem like God holds Satan back much. Satan is a pretty scary dude in the New Testament:

Heb. 2:14 -- “By his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is, the devil.” Hmm, I always thought God had the power of death.

1 John 3:8 -- “The reason the Son of Man appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.” Oh, so the devil’s work was so powerfully terrible, that God had to send Jesus to take care
of it?

2 Cor 4:4 -- “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel.” So Satan prevents us from seeing it. He is able to do that.

Matt 13:19 -- “When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.” Wow, now that’s a lot of power.

Eph 6:12 -- “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, authorities, and powers or this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” So it’s not God’s struggle, for him alone to deal with the Devil, but we have to fight against Satan and the demons ourselves.

1 Peter 5:8 -- “Be self controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.”

Eph 6:11 -- “Put on the full armor of God, so you can take your stand against the Devil’s schemes.” So I need to actively do something to protect myself from the Devil. God alone isn’t going to protect me from him. He’s not going to tell Satan not to mess with me. I need to have the breastplate of righteousness in place, and I need to hold up the shield of faith, so I can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And I need to
pray and be alert. So Satan is even throwing flaming arrows, and God ain’t stopping him.

2 Cor 2:11 -- “In order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.” So Satan has schemes that we need to be aware of, so he doesn’t outwit us.

2 Cor 11:14 -- “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.” Wow he even does that now! I guess God told him he could disguise himself as a good angel and go trick people.

Matt 12:45 -- “(An evil spirit) goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.” So not just one, but many spirits could possess you. God didn’t stop it from happening.

So why are there all these warnings about Satan and demons anyway? I thought Jesus was supposed to have defeated Satan. John 12:31 -- “Now the prince of this world will
be driven out.” If Satan was driven out of the world, doesn’t that mean he can’t tempt people here anymore? What was he driven out of?

Now I know that God CAN stop Satan from doing stuff, and Christians CAN resist the devil, but THE POINT IS, God WILL let Satan do stuff to you, and you do need to resist the devil, and that’s why there are all those warnings about Satan in the New Testament.


BUT GOING BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POINT:

These warnings about Satan were not given in the Old Testament! There was no such talk like this. No one in the O.T. told others, “take your stand against the devil’s schemes,” or “be alert, your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.”

ALSO, THERE WERE NOT WARNINGS ABOUT HELL IN THE O.T.

No one back then was saying, “Narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. But wide is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.” No one in the O.T. said, “Be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” The people in the O.T. feared God because he would bring calamity on them (such as famine, plague, etc.), not because they thought he’d send ‘em to an eternal fire. They feared God because they knew he could kill them, and they just didn’t want to die. No one does. ALL THE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS IN THE O.T. HAD TO DO WITH PHYSICAL THINGS! (see Leviticus 26). The reward of heaven was not held out to them, nor was there the threat of hell. They were to obey God, and the reason they did was so all would go well with them.

In my Bible, the NIV, this is what it says about Hell:

Hell = Hades = The Abode of the Dead = All these scriptures about Hades are in the N.T.
Hell = Gehenna = The Place of Punishment = All in the N.T.
Hell = Tartarus = The Place of Punishment = All in the N.T.
Sheol = The Unseen State = All in the O.T.
The Grave = The pit, or death, or burying places = some in the o.t. and some in the n.t.

So Hell (meaning the place of punishment) is only talked about in the New Testament. Sheol (just meaning the unseen state) is only in the O.T., so back then, they did not know about a place of eternal punishment. They just knew that when you died you were gone and seen no more.


BAPTISM

You totally missed my point here. NO ONE IN THE O.T. WAS BAPTIZED FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. Anointing of PRIESTS was not baptism. They were washed with water for ceremonial cleansing. This was NOT for the forgiveness of sins. But in
the N.T. you all of a sudden have people accepting that getting dunked under water is good for getting your sins forgiven! In the O.T. sins were forgiven by animal sacrifice. In the N.T., baptism was a totally different way to get sins forgiven, unheard of in the
O.T. times. The only reason that the people in Jesus time were so accepting of baptism was because they got the idea from other cultures during the time between the book of Malachi and Matthew. There were other cultures and religions that practiced baptism for forgiveness of sins (such as Mithraism). It seems extremely likely that Christianity was influenced by Mithraism, during those 400 years where there's a big blank in your Bible.

Justin70

Carrie,

Fantastic informaton and quite thorough!

I was gonna open up my notes cuz I remembered doing some research on the definition of hell (Sheol) in the O.T. but you beat me to it!

Good job.

I think it's very very clear that the god of the O.T. is quite a very different god from the one in the new. It's very clear by character and context.

Justin