Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-04-2003, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nom
Theology prof by the name of Dennis MacDonald presented an interesting take on the "carpenter" question a few years ago in a book entitled The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark, a very readable and (IMHO) compelling case that the first gospel drew a great deal of inspiration from Homer's Illiad and (mostly) The Odyssey. Odysseus is also described as a TEKTWN, MacDonld says; making the hero of an epic a skilled craftsman was symbolic of wisdom and foresight. He suggests that the autors of later gospels were either unaware of this "pagan" motif and removed it out of embarassment, or were aware of it and deliberately removed/changed it.

Actually, I think that MacDonald speculates that Mark transvalued Odysseus - that Odysseus was a master craftsman, while Jesus in contrast was a lowly carpenter, who nevertheless performed greated feats.

at p. 19: "For Homer, Odysseus's handiwork reinforced his intelligence, resourcefulness, and wit; carpentry was a metaphor for wisdom. The opposite is the case in Mark, and the earliest evanglist may be emulating Homer's hero, making Jesus even wiser and more powerful than Odysseus. Jesus' neighbors recognized him as a carpenter, but his wisdom and ability to perofrm miracles far exceeded what they expected even from a skilled craftsman."

Nom · 08-05-2003, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Actually, I think that MacDonald speculates that Mark transvalued Odysseus

Quite true -- in fact he argues that large swaths of Mark are a Homeric transvaluation. I'd recommend the book, but I see you already have it.

08-05-2003, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto

at p. 19: "For Homer, Odysseus's handiwork reinforced his intelligence, resourcefulness, and wit; carpentry was a metaphor for wisdom. The opposite is the case in Mark, and the earliest evanglist may be emulating Homer's hero, making Jesus even wiser and more powerful than Odysseus. Jesus' neighbors recognized him as a carpenter, but his wisdom and ability to perofrm miracles far exceeded what they expected even from a skilled craftsman."

He was, Joseph had twelve shepherds that were his helpers who were called to be his apostels and later were re-called into heaven where they became the basis for his omniscience.

Toto · 08-05-2003, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nom
Quite true -- in fact he argues that large swaths of Mark are a Homeric transvaluation. I'd recommend the book, but I see you already have it.

There are some very long threads in the archives about this book. You might want to read Richard Carrier's review. The Christians who visit this site were quite upset with MacDonald, although MacDonald is a practicing Christian.

Nom · 08-05-2003, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
There are some very long threads in the archives about this book. You might want to read Richard Carrier's review. The Christians who visit this site were quite upset with MacDonald, although MacDonald is a practicing Christian.

I can imagine. I'll have to go rooting around in the archives some rainy day. As to Carrier's review, I read that way back when; it was actually what interested me in the book in the first place. I also remember reading an interview with MacDonald (salon, or maybe about.com, something like that) in which he expressed surprise (!) at his book's popularity among atheists.

the_cave · 08-06-2003, 09:15 AM

Quote:

According to Marcus Borg:

quote:
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He [Jesus- SP] probably became a woodworker (in Greek, tekton). The word tekton has been translated as, but has a different meaning from, our word carpenter-that is, one who works on wooden buildings. For the most part, buildings were not made of wood in Palestine. Rather, a tekton made wood products: doors, door frames, roof beams, furniture, cabinets, boxes, even yokes and plows. In terms of social standing, a tekton was at the lower end of the peasant class, more marginalized than a peasant who still owned a small piece of land. We should not think of a tekton as being a step up from a subsistence farmer; rather, a tekton belonged to a family that had lost its land.

p. 26, Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time
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See, this is the problem I have with this sort of thing. On the one hand, maybe "tekton" was an honorific, attributing skills to a mythic hero, a la Odysseus. Except that maybe a tekton was a marginalized figure, little better than an unemployed, landless laborer. I have heard other similarly plausible explanations. I myself don't know how to choose between these options, as they seem to exclude one another, so to me, they remain interesting possibilities, but little more.

Tristan Scott · 08-06-2003, 10:30 AM

Maybe things were different 2,000 years ago, but how many Jewish carpenters do you know nowadays? My next door neighbor is Jewish and couldn't pound a nail in without inflicting serious injuries.

Toto · 08-06-2003, 10:33 AM

Things were different 2000 years ago.

But i guess ethnic stereotyping based on one data point will never die.

Tristan Scott · 08-06-2003, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto

But i guess ethnic stereotyping based on one data point will never die.

Get over yourself.

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08-06-2003, 10:30 AM	#17
Tristan Scott Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southwest USA Posts: 4,093	Maybe things were different 2,000 years ago, but how many Jewish carpenters do you know nowadays? My next door neighbor is Jewish and couldn't pound a nail in without inflicting serious injuries.

08-06-2003, 10:33 AM	#18
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Things were different 2000 years ago. But i guess ethnic stereotyping based on one data point will never die.

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