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I have known several cats and dogs that fit this definition and I do not have any reason to believe that those traits are limited to humans, dogs, and cats.

Concerning intangible concepts, I would agree but only because of human language as others have pointed out. BTW, what do dolphins and whales communicate about?

Do you have a source on this? I am highly skeptical about those numbers.

Back in high school (all those years ago), I was told about the Big Bang theory which said that the vacuum existed (not nothing) and a singularity (again not nothing) and that the singularity exploded which developed into all of the matter and energy currently within that vacuum. From this definition came other questions like "Where did the singularity come from?" and "Why did it explode?", which scientists are working on these questions.

The only place where I have heard that something came from nothing (an impossibility which has been discussed in other threads) is from religion stating that there was nothing and then their god(s) sprang into existance. So they claim that something (the god(s)) came from nothing where the scientists (that I have read about) do not claim that nothing existed (where they use the term "nothing", they mean a vacuum which is something).

Jobar

Eldy, I doubt that any of us here would say that there is no wisdom at all to be found in the Bible. (I am partial to Ecclesiastes, myself.) Our problem with it is that too many people think it the source of *all* wisdom, and that it contains no least flaw- a position we find simply dumb.

As to spirituality- to the degree that it is used as a statement of things socially and personally ideal, we have no least quarrel with it. But when it is used to try to justify some sort of supernatural 'truth' we find it about as useful and helpful as a lead life vest. There is no way to attach meaning to it, no *thing* actually referred to. The definition given by Gemma makes no more sense than defining spirituality as a wibldot of the human vlug. The words flail around senselessly, with no anchor in the world of rational discourse.

sandlewood

You’ve simply re-asserted this again. How do you know it is lacking in animals? How do you know that the “I am” is in other humans besides your self? Only because you can communicate with them. So if an animal had the “I am” how would you know?
But you are arbitrarily placing value on these things. They are only important to humans.
Truth? Are you sure? Sounds rather like Pascal’s Wager. If you’re interested in truth, I think you’ll look at both theism and atheism with a critical eye, not just one of them.

I don’t have the quote handy, but doesn’t the Bible say that you should not associate with atheists?
Then how do you determine the parts that have changed from the parts that are original? Could the miracles have been invented and exaggerated? Could there be no supernaturalism involved, but only philosophy?

Eldy

Eldy speakin': The definition given is a good way to work with words.

2 : a supernatural being or essence: as a capitalized : HOLY SPIRIT b : SOUL 2a c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : GHOST 2 d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being.

All of you have shown that it is difficult to discuss things of a spiritual nature. I agree. I don't mind controversy or disagreement, rather, I enjoy it, and especially if it is edifying to the human being and the human spirit.

With so much horse manure and garbage accumulated along the 2000 year road from Jesus to century 21, it is no wonder that we must grasp and grope for what is good, true, and beautiful in this life. So much evil has been done in the name of religion.

The word "spirit" does refer initially to "breath" or "air," which is what breathing is all about. "Aspire" is to "breath from." "Inspire" is to "breathe in."

The word "spirit" is more Roman and English. The word for air in the New Testament is PNEUMA. A pneumatic tire is filled with air. The PNEUMATOS HAGIOS is the Holy Spirit in the New Testament.

In the days of the writing of the NT books, the words were written all in capitals, and there was no spacing between words and no punctuation. There were no periods or question marks.

The word PNEUMA was written the same whether referring to the human spirit or the holy spirit of God. This is why there can be so many "meanings" to the New Testament writings.

That which animates man at the material level is the PNEUMA, or air; that which animates him at the spiritual or mental or intellectual level, is the PNEUMA, the spiritual essense of God, his creator. Yes, this is an assertion.

These are rather intertwined because when the air leaves the human body, then so does the spiritual essense, and the body stops living, moving, thinking, or breathing.

Some things we choose by not choosing. The writer of this point made a good one. There are many good points made by you who are contesting with me. I appreciate your comments. I like to be made to think.

I will have to concede that we believers demand that the one thing (God, or god, as you would say)came from nothing. We desire that God be a "given" in a religious argument. True.

Our finite minds cannot comprehend things that have no beginning and no ending. We cannot intelligently discuss it, even.

It seems that time and space have not endings, that we can determine.

Some of you have said that we are not talking about spirituality when we talk of love, joy, peace, patience, brotherly kindness and gentleness. You have said these are only emotions, or only intelligence.

But you are as hard pressed to discuss the origins of intelligence, self-awareness, human emotions or mind, as you are with spirituality.

Noticed this: Evolution does not account for the life-force, mind, emotions, intelligence (human intelligence, assuming there may be some animal intelligence [that may be instinct?]} or pretty butts on women.

Since evolution does not account for these, which may be summed up in essence, SPIRITUALITY, where did these come from? Are you just going to ignore the BIG ONES and think you have everything figured out? You don't.

Since we have these, then they must have come from One-Who-Intervened in the history of man somewhere. If not, who not.

I appreciate your kind and considered answers. And, yes, I don't know where God came from.

But since you cannot come up with the concept of God by your natural senses, where did you get the antithesis of God?

Eldy

From Eldy the Elderly: I was looking for the comment about sperm. Loving or intelligent, we do know where they come from. From come.

I was looking a year or two on tv at some electron microscope views of the zygote or whatever they call it, of a fertilized human egg, and the microscope showed these undifferentiated stem cells (if that is the right term) multiplying worse than rabbits, and the SUDDENLY, they began to differentiate and collect with other differentiated cells. Some became backbone cells. Some became brain cells. Some became skin cells. Eventually there were billions (so they said) of cells that were differentiating into a new human being.

Are you going to believe that these cells did this without direction from the spirit of life, the fountain of spirituality? As I say, all human beings who are alive are spiritual beings.

brighid

If you have ever watched a Jane Goodall documentary, or anything on Scientific American in regard to our ape relatives you will understand that they demonstrate, possess and understand those qualities. The animal kingdom is still very mysterious to us and it is arrogant to say that they do not possess language and intellect, we are simply speaking a different language and aren’t able to communicate with them effectively. Therefore we are unable to effectively ascertain the scope of their feelings or knowledge.

B

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

TenaciousB

If you want to label Genes and DNA a "spirt of life" go ahead. Just let us know so we are talking about the same thing.

Philosoft

Eldy,

Do you have any arguments that are not of the form:

1) Humans have characteristics X, Y & Z.
2) Other animals don't.
3) Therefore, humans are spiritual beings.

If so, I think now is the time to break'em out.

sandlewood

This is known as the argument from incredulity. It goes: "I can't understand how that could have happened, therefore God did it." It doesn't hold up well. Can you describe the mechanism by which the spirit causes stem cells to differentiate, or is it just magic?

Besides, doesn't it work the same way in animals?

Eldy

From Eldy: It works the same way in animals, I would assume. I don't need to describe how it happens, but those who think it happens without God have a lot of describing to do.

Is it magic for you? What is it for you? Without God in the life-equation, one has dead matter, or still-birth, etc.

Is it any better to say, "I don't understand how it works, but I sure as heck don't believe an intelligent being did it."

Man is a spiritual being. All the things that humankind is, and has been, and can be, cannot be explained by evolution, or by any other means, than spirituality.

I would feel no better to just ignore LIFE. But life started somewhere, even my family tree. If I go back to enough grandfathers, I get back to an original human being.

May be he was calling, as he swung from the trees, "Ape call! Doodly ob ah!"

It has been fun discussing with you folks. Have a good forever.