Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Metacrock · 04-03-2003, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
The Crusades COST money. A LOT of it. Richard taxed the English to the hilt and virtually bankrupted the country. Sure, individual crusaders grabbed plunder whenever they could, but the motive for staging the Crusades was not financial. And the only organization that became wealthy through the Crusades (by charging passage for crusaders on their ships) was the Christian Knights Templar.

And why mention Schindler and other virtuous people who happened to be Christian, while apparently denying that those who expelled the Jews from England and Spain were also Christian? Double standard?

No it's not a double standard, I dealt with both of them. You still haven't dealt with my arugment. Why should the bad gusy represent the religion and not the good guys? Given that all faiths and races and groups have both, why define a group only by its bad guys?

guilt by association is still an informal fallacy.

and money was the motive, and power and control of trade roots. So what if they were expensive? They stood to gain a lot more by controling the trade roots then they would have by staying where they were.

Is The Bible The Word of God?

Jack the Bodiless · 04-04-2003, 04:13 AM

Some highlights from A Comparative Chronology of Money:

Quote:

1095-1270 The Crusades
The need to transfer large sums of money to finance the Crusades provides a stimulus to the re-emergence of banking in western Europe.

1162 Henry II levies a tax to support the Crusades
This is the first of a series of taxes levied by Henry over the years with the same objective. The Templars and Hospitallers act as his bankers in the Holy Land.

1185 Henry II levies a new Crusading Tax

1187 Battle of Hattin
Henry II's eastern account contains approximately 20,000 pounds of silver but he does not allow anyone to spend it until after Saladin's crushing victory over the Crusaders.

1188 The Saladin Tithe
Henry extends the provisions of the crusading tax of 1185 and attempts to speed up the assessment process by introducing self-assessment.

1189-1199 Reign of Richard I
On ascending the throne Richard immediately begins to "privatise" the monarchy's assets to raise money for the 3rd Crusade which starts in 1190. On his return through Europe he is taken prisoner, sold to Emperor Henry VI and then held for ransom.

1215 The Magna Carta signed
Among its provisions were restrictions on the right of the king to raise taxes without the consent of the Barons.

Yes, there was a lot of money involved in the crusades. But not much of it came from the Middle East...

Tabula_rasa · 04-04-2003, 05:17 AM

The only error being made is one of not understanding what an analogy is.

3 is to 6 as 5 is to 10 [ the second is twice as much as the first]

Noone would argue that this analogy is attempting to compare 3 to 5 or 6 to 10. What is being compared is the relationship between 3/6 and 5/10 that is, the second is twice as much as the first. One could definitely argue about the sensitivity of such an analogy as Baidarka makes. However, the analogy is spot on.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled rant.

Tabula_rasa

Baidarka · 04-04-2003, 06:15 AM

Metacrock

�That is such bigoted horse dung! How dare you compare the life style of my grandmother and her most sacred beliefs to the KKK? Who the hell do you think you are? Martin Luther King was a Christian! that's shows us how little you know about history. I have as much of a right to my tradition and my upbrining as anyone else, without your or any other bigot trying to tell me whta it's about or what its like.�

I have been writing about anti-semitic doctrine and not implying that Christians share a collective guilt for the crimes committed in their name.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 - 15*
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Was this written by Jews? Who are the prophets that the collective Jews killed?
Why are Jews contrary to all men?
This bigoted crap is being fed to Children. Is this God�s word?

Acts 4:10
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Even if some Jews in Jerusalem were involved in Jesus� death (a very questionable proposition) how can this be translated into collective Jewish guilt?
Did the American people kill Martin Luther King or JFK?
JFK, whom ye shot dead.

-RRH- · 04-04-2003, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Have we (Jews) been persecuted ALOT? Yes, i'd say more than any other group of people in history.

(cough)gypsies(cough)

Minor quibble, ignore me...

Godless Dave · 04-04-2003, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Have we (Jews) been persecuted ALOT? Yes, i'd say more than any other group of people in history.

I think you're probably right. And what group has persecuted Jews more than anyone else? Christians. I think that was the point of the original post. (Although the Muslims are trying real hard to make up for lost time).

04-04-2003, 05:17 AM	#23
Tabula_rasa Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: East of Dumbville, MA Posts: 144	Pedant Alert The only error being made is one of not understanding what an analogy is. 3 is to 6 as 5 is to 10 [ the second is twice as much as the first] Noone would argue that this analogy is attempting to compare 3 to 5 or 6 to 10. What is being compared is the relationship between 3/6 and 5/10 that is, the second is twice as much as the first. One could definitely argue about the sensitivity of such an analogy as Baidarka makes. However, the analogy is spot on. I now return you to your regularly scheduled rant. Tabula_rasa

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04-04-2003, 06:15 AM	#24
Baidarka Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 590	Metacrock �That is such bigoted horse dung! How dare you compare the life style of my grandmother and her most sacred beliefs to the KKK? Who the hell do you think you are? Martin Luther King was a Christian! that's shows us how little you know about history. I have as much of a right to my tradition and my upbrining as anyone else, without your or any other bigot trying to tell me whta it's about or what its like.� I have been writing about anti-semitic doctrine and not implying that Christians share a collective guilt for the crimes committed in their name. 1 Thessalonians 2:14 - 15* 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Was this written by Jews? Who are the prophets that the collective Jews killed? Why are Jews contrary to all men? This bigoted crap is being fed to Children. Is this God�s word? Acts 4:10 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. Even if some Jews in Jerusalem were involved in Jesus� death (a very questionable proposition) how can this be translated into collective Jewish guilt? Did the American people kill Martin Luther King or JFK? JFK, whom ye shot dead.

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