Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malaclypse the Younger · 03-22-2002, 10:16 AM

SirenSpeak

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Drug use Vs. Abuse...? to me isnt even an option. I would like someone to explain to me WHY you feel the need to be in an altered state of mind. (this was my original point.)

I want to. I need make no other explanation if I want to perform an action that has no material affect on you.

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Can you really enjoy yourself without drugs or alchohol? Why or Why not?

Certainly. I can also enjoy myself with drugs or alcohol. I can enjoy myself with or without video games, with or without professional entertainers, with or without a computer.

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If you find that you are unable to enjoy life without being sober, how are you different than fundamentalists who "need" god to get through life. You leave behind one god to join another.

This is a personal moral decision and the (accurate, IMHO) observation that drug dependence is substantively similar to god-belief might be unobjectionable to some.

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I realize this may bother a lot of you, being compared to christians and all, but think about my point.

My guess is that few of us here are at all dependent on drugs for entertainment.

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As I've said before, I love being able to be really "on my own", no god, no drugs, no hopeless human attachment. Just me and those I love. That is all I need to face the day.

Good for you.

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Because I am an individual, who saw how pot and other drugs demotivated my friends, and all but fucked up my family. Even when I was very young, I saw drugs at work, in the ritalin stoned child next to me in grade school. Just days before he had been vibrant and energetic. Now, he was tired, and mellow.

More focused? Maybe, but proably not. Just in a daze, "but at least it got him to sit still"

<shrugs> Your anecdotal evidence is even more unpersuasive given your obvious bias. Both my sons have taken Ritalin and I have seen marked improvement their academic success, social functioning and self-esteem.

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I hate drugs...with a passion.

Obviously. Good for you. Don't take them.

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In the same breath however, I agree in the sense some should be legalized. Let the government make some money off of them. Let them be regulated and safe. Take the business away from the sleazy dealers that end up killing each other because they owe money to each other.

Can't disagree with you here.

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I remember this last new years...Standing around, watching people play "circle of death"
Watching them knowingly destroy the only brain cells they will ever have. I watched them "drunk dial" people they havent talked to in years.

<shrugs> Their lives, not yours.

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I watched them do things they normally would not do, if they were sober. They kissed, they flirted, they left together. And one could only imagine the difference it would have made if alchahol were not present.

It is trivially obvious that drugs substantively change one's behavior; if they did not, they would be unremarkable. This effect, however, does not entail their wrongness.

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I met my wonderful boyfriend at a party years ago. He and I both had nothing to drink or smoke, and you know what? we hit it off perfectly.

Good for you.

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Ask yourself this, if you are more comfortable in a social setting drinking, why is that? Are you afraid to let the "real" you out? Why cant you just drop your inhibitions and let loose?

As noted, in some social situations I don't drink, in some I do. Whatever happens to suit me at the time.

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I am infamous among my friends for being more wild than you all probably imagine. I am spontaneous, and I do things that I will look back on when I'm older and will probably shake my head and say, "stupid kid" with a smile on my face.

Good for you.

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I dont needdrugs to be this way. I AM this way! And that, to me makes me a genuine person. What you see is what you get. Not "What you see is what you get as long as this shit hasnt worn off yet."

Good for you.

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I realize this post may cause a lot of you again to feel like I am judging. I am not.

Your statements do contain some implicit judgements. But I frankly don't care how you feel about the way I live my life.

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I am telling you about what and why I believe what I do about substance USE.

Fine. Don't use drugs. No one is asking you to.

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I am compelled to tell you one thing however, so that you realize that I do know the struggle of pain and depression.

Good for you.

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I used to cut on myself a few years back, a lot. When I look back, I used to think I did for attention, but then I realized that I never did it where anyone could see. No one ever knew, except my boyfriend and my docs. I did it constantly and I still to this day have scars from it. I believe they are there for a reason. To remind me, that addictions are BAD. when you depend on something, you become weak. I want to be strong...

The highlighted passage is a fallaciously unjustified generalization. I am dependent on air, food, warmth. I am dependent on friends. I am dependent on having an audience here for my work. I am dependent on my job.

Everyone approves of some dependencies and disapproves of others. Indeed, what constitutes "dependency" itself is a matter of opinion.

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This was an addiction, I could not stop. I tried everything except drugs.(see my above posts for how I overcame this)
And eventually...I overcame it. With support from my loved ones, I did it. And to this day I smile and hold my head up a little higher knowing that we as humans, can overcome ANYTHING! And we should be proud of that.

I'm pleased that you overcame issues that caused you distress. Some people can overcome some things. However, some people cannot. This is a fact of life. Compassion for weakness is as important as admiration for strength.

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Malaclypse the Younger ]

three4jump · 03-23-2002, 04:09 PM

How about this for a plan for legalizing drugs:
1. You have to pass a test that shows you understand the risks before you are allowed to buy them.
2. Since drugs would be much cheaper to produce and distribute if they were legal, you could keep the price as high as in the illegal days and use the surplus funds as an insurance program to provide healthcare and rehabilitation to the inevitable percentage that would become uncontrolled abusers.

I would still greatly prefer that no one use recreational drugs, but since most people don't care what I would prefer, legalization, education, and insurance would probably be less damaging than our current state of affairs.

Pomp · 03-23-2002, 04:17 PM

three4jump,

2. Since drugs would be much cheaper to produce and distribute if they were legal, you could keep the price as high as in the illegal days and use the surplus funds as an insurance program to provide healthcare and rehabilitation to the inevitable percentage that would become uncontrolled abusers.

This defeats one of the purposes of legalizing drugs. Their artificially high price leads to increased theft so users can attain the money to buy them.

three4jump · 03-23-2002, 04:37 PM

Mr. Bastard, I see your point, but I'm not sure I entirely agree. I think heavy drug users need to steal because their drug habit prevents them from holding jobs. Nobody, not even McDonalds, is going to hire you if you can't get up on time or stay straight for an entire shift, so I don't think cheap drugs would necessarily stop junkies from stealing. I could be wrong.

livius drusus · 03-23-2002, 05:28 PM

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Originally posted by three4jump:
I think heavy drug users need to steal because their drug habit prevents them from holding jobs.

If this were true, there wouldn't have been any employed stockbrokers in the 80s. You are forgetting the huge number of rich, employed, or even just comfortable drug users who have no problem earning enough to supporting their recreational pursuits/addictions.

For that matter, how about the five martini lunch and friday Happy Hour? Regular drug use is perfectly compatible with business.

kat10 · 03-23-2002, 06:30 PM

Pretty interesting discussions all around. I'm trying to figure out the best way to participate since I'm new around here. I doubt many of the people in this forum have overtly attempted to persuade non-drug users to use drugs when they'd expressed their desire not to. I myself am drug-free, and can sympathize with Siren and three4jump about the peer pressure issues. Honestly, I chose this highly unpopular path of sobriety (heh) because I'm much like Siren myself. I am outspoken, wild, and outgoing all on my own. My personality is hard enough for me to keep balanced all by itself, I can't imagine how much worse it'd be if I was in some sort of mentally altered state. I highly agree with proper educational campaigns with regard to drug use. But, personally, I'm sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for themselves(read: those that are able, we will discount mentally handicapped people, immature children and the like). Why are some people, for example three4, so pissed off about someone offeringdrugs to someone else? I feel that it is that person's (the one being offered, not the one offering) responsibility to ask about potential hazards and pertinent information about the drug. Like, the person's whose friend ended up trying E, I'm sorry I've forgotten who this anecdote belonged to. They did their research and made a conscious decision to accept the risk involved in trying something new.

three4jump · 03-23-2002, 06:57 PM

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Originally posted by livius drusus:
 If this were true, there wouldn't have been any employed stockbrokers in the 80s. You are forgetting the huge number of rich, employed, or even just comfortable drug users who have no problem earning enough to supporting their recreational pursuits/addictions.

I didn't forget about the stockbrockers, I just figured the higher prices wouldn't a problem for them, and I doubt they were breaking into peoples' homes to support their habits.

three4jump · 03-23-2002, 07:21 PM

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Originally posted by kat10:
 Why are some people, for example three4, so pissed off about someone offeringdrugs to someone else? I feel that it is that person's (the one being offered, not the one offering) responsibility to ask about potential hazards and pertinent information about the drug.

kat10, welcome to the Infidels boards! The trouble I have with people offering drugs is the impression they are giving that it is safe or okay somehow. If I had a gun, and someone wanted to borrow it, I would make sure the knew all of the safety rules and also find out what they intended to use it for. If someone who had never driven before wanted to borrow my car, I would either give them lessons first or tell them to come back after they'd had instruction. Every time someone has offered me drugs, including pot, cigarettes, alcohol, and acid, they've merely said, "Here, try some of this."

If I gave my gun to a fourteen-year-old and he killed himself or someone else, I would feel responsible. If I started someone on drugs and they came to harm, I would feel responsible. Obviously, a great many people disagree with me.

livius drusus · 03-23-2002, 07:31 PM

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Originally posted by three4jump:
I didn't forget about the stockbrockers, I just figured the higher prices wouldn't a problem for them, and I doubt they were breaking into peoples' homes to support their habits.

Exactly. So when you said that heavy drug users would resort to thievery due to an inability to hold a job, you were only talking about poor heavy drug users?

I think if cheap, safe drugs were readily available, any number of jobs could support the habit, including minimum wage jobs. Since we don't know how cheap and available they'd be, we're just speculating, but Methadone clinics have shown that even severely addicted people can live crime-free lives.

Pomp · 03-23-2002, 07:56 PM

three4jump said:

Mr. Bastard...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Seriously, livius beat me to the response, so I don't have anything to add.

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03-23-2002, 04:09 PM	#102
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	How about this for a plan for legalizing drugs: 1. You have to pass a test that shows you understand the risks before you are allowed to buy them. 2. Since drugs would be much cheaper to produce and distribute if they were legal, you could keep the price as high as in the illegal days and use the surplus funds as an insurance program to provide healthcare and rehabilitation to the inevitable percentage that would become uncontrolled abusers. I would still greatly prefer that no one use recreational drugs, but since most people don't care what I would prefer, legalization, education, and insurance would probably be less damaging than our current state of affairs.

03-23-2002, 04:17 PM	#103
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	three4jump, 2. Since drugs would be much cheaper to produce and distribute if they were legal, you could keep the price as high as in the illegal days and use the surplus funds as an insurance program to provide healthcare and rehabilitation to the inevitable percentage that would become uncontrolled abusers. This defeats one of the purposes of legalizing drugs. Their artificially high price leads to increased theft so users can attain the money to buy them.

03-23-2002, 04:37 PM	#104
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	Mr. Bastard, I see your point, but I'm not sure I entirely agree. I think heavy drug users need to steal because their drug habit prevents them from holding jobs. Nobody, not even McDonalds, is going to hire you if you can't get up on time or stay straight for an entire shift, so I don't think cheap drugs would necessarily stop junkies from stealing. I could be wrong.

03-23-2002, 06:30 PM	#106
kat10 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: anywhere but there Posts: 48	Pretty interesting discussions all around. I'm trying to figure out the best way to participate since I'm new around here. I doubt many of the people in this forum have overtly attempted to persuade non-drug users to use drugs when they'd expressed their desire not to. I myself am drug-free, and can sympathize with Siren and three4jump about the peer pressure issues. Honestly, I chose this highly unpopular path of sobriety (heh) because I'm much like Siren myself. I am outspoken, wild, and outgoing all on my own. My personality is hard enough for me to keep balanced all by itself, I can't imagine how much worse it'd be if I was in some sort of mentally altered state. I highly agree with proper educational campaigns with regard to drug use. But, personally, I'm sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for themselves(read: those that are able, we will discount mentally handicapped people, immature children and the like). Why are some people, for example three4, so pissed off about someone offeringdrugs to someone else? I feel that it is that person's (the one being offered, not the one offering) responsibility to ask about potential hazards and pertinent information about the drug. Like, the person's whose friend ended up trying E, I'm sorry I've forgotten who this anecdote belonged to. They did their research and made a conscious decision to accept the risk involved in trying something new.

03-23-2002, 07:56 PM	#110
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	three4jump said: Mr. Bastard... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Seriously, livius beat me to the response, so I don't have anything to add.

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