Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RogerLeeCooke · 10-13-2002, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
Keith, there are some forms of good only obtainable through the allowance of some evil.

Courage in the face of pain, for example, would require pain. Patience requires someone to have to wait for a need or want to be met. Forgiveness requires a transgression to be forgiven.

There are some forms of good not possible without evil. Is it possible that these forms of good are "more good" than the forms of good which could exist without evil? <shrug>

That's a very flexible doctrine you've got there. It's hard to see how ANY evil, no matter how blatant, could be inconsistent with it. As a result, it makes meaningless the doctrine that God is good.

I looked at the link in the original posting on this thread and was amused to see that global warming is taken as typical of the natural disasters that have befallen us. Since there is a scientific hypothesis under which human action can be claimed as the cause of global warming, it is concluded that human action is to be blamed, rather than God. But there were earthquakes, volcanoes, plagues, hurricanes, floods, droughts, and the like, long before human technology was advanced enough to have any influence on the climate.

Of course, you could always blame it on Adam and Eve, the skeleton key that Christians use to unlock any box they've got themselves locked into.

Sheep in the big city · 10-13-2002, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadMordigan:
Obviously God endorses hitting people on the head with hammers, because it feels so good when you stop.

Does it????

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Aaaaaah the joy!!!

ChrisJGQ · 10-13-2002, 03:59 PM

"No, I don't believe the hi jackers were saved by Jesus. Jesus wouldn't orchestrate a killing on this scale, or at all."

You're right. God, as described in the old testament, probably would've done something far more horrific

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: ChrisJGQ ]

JerryM · 10-13-2002, 07:23 PM

That old optimist argument just won't seem to go away. We're supposed to believe that all of the tragedy, misfortune, and evil in the world is really part of God's plan for the greater good. All is ultimately for the best. Professor Pangloss lives!

Keith Russell · 10-14-2002, 08:33 AM

luvluv said:
Keith, there are some forms of good only obtainable through the allowance of some evil.
Courage in the face of pain, for example, would require pain. Patience requires someone to have to wait for a need or want to be met. Forgiveness requires a transgression to be forgiven.

There are some forms of good not possible without evil. Is it possible that these forms of good are "more good" than the forms of good which could exist without evil? <shrug>

Luv, this is exactly the kind of 'thinking' I find scariest about religion. Reasoning from this premise, one could actually start to think that creating evil might be a 'good' thing; since from greater evil, an even greater 'good' could ultimately result.

Keith.

galiel · 10-14-2002, 02:07 PM

What I can't understand is why people can't leave the poor cetacean alone. Wasn't Hollywood's exploitation enough?

luvluv · 10-14-2002, 02:10 PM

Keith:

Quote:

Luv, this is exactly the kind of 'thinking' I find scariest about religion. Reasoning from this premise, one could actually start to think that creating evil might be a 'good' thing; since from greater evil, an even greater 'good' could ultimately result.

Can you name a religion which reasons thusly? I am not aware of one.

Devilnaut · 10-14-2002, 02:36 PM

I believe he was referring to your reasoning, Luvluv, in this very thread. So, Christianity.

I too find it repulsive that people can blithely state that everything that happens "happens for a reason", or that everything was "meant to be". Are they telling me that if they could change history, they would not prevent the holocaust? Or all of the other forms of suffering that have plagued our history? This seems to me like an extremely dangerous outlook.

luvluv · 10-14-2002, 03:10 PM

Quote:

I believe he was referring to your reasoning, Luvluv, in this very thread. So, Christianity.

That's patently false. I do not advocate the purposeful commision of evil in order to bring about greater good.

I also do not know of any segement of Christianity or any other world religion which has "the promotion of evil for the sake of good"
as a policy.

Devilnaut · 10-14-2002, 03:37 PM

Quote:

I also do not know of any segement of Christianity or any other world religion which has "the promotion of evil for the sake of good"
as a policy.

Well no kidding

Surely it is disagreable, but remember we are attempting to extrapolate from your arguments. I am not suggesting that you believe this, only that it seems to follow from your reasoning.

If evil serves a greater good, and if you are committed to the belief that there is no such thing as "unnecessary evil", then how can you condemn me for committing evil acts in the name of "greater good"?

Maybe you'll say that we as humans have no business deciding what evil will constitute a greater good, and that my creation of evil would not violate God's omnibenevolence/omnipotence because it would be an act of my own free will. But what would you say to someone who chooses not to prevent a natural disaster, because of the belief that it would not occur if it were unnecessary evil?

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]

10-13-2002, 03:59 PM	#13
ChrisJGQ Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Portland OR Posts: 82	"No, I don't believe the hi jackers were saved by Jesus. Jesus wouldn't orchestrate a killing on this scale, or at all." You're right. God, as described in the old testament, probably would've done something far more horrific [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: ChrisJGQ ]</p>

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10-13-2002, 07:23 PM	#14
JerryM Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO. Posts: 1,100	That old optimist argument just won't seem to go away. We're supposed to believe that all of the tragedy, misfortune, and evil in the world is really part of God's plan for the greater good. All is ultimately for the best. Professor Pangloss lives!

10-14-2002, 08:33 AM	#15
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	luvluv said: Keith, there are some forms of good only obtainable through the allowance of some evil. Courage in the face of pain, for example, would require pain. Patience requires someone to have to wait for a need or want to be met. Forgiveness requires a transgression to be forgiven. There are some forms of good not possible without evil. Is it possible that these forms of good are "more good" than the forms of good which could exist without evil? <shrug> Luv, this is exactly the kind of 'thinking' I find scariest about religion. Reasoning from this premise, one could actually start to think that creating evil might be a 'good' thing; since from greater evil, an even greater 'good' could ultimately result. Keith.

10-14-2002, 02:07 PM	#16
galiel Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Posts: 1,677	What I can't understand is why people can't leave the poor cetacean alone. Wasn't Hollywood's exploitation enough?

10-14-2002, 02:36 PM	#18
Devilnaut Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 374	I believe he was referring to your reasoning, Luvluv, in this very thread. So, Christianity. I too find it repulsive that people can blithely state that everything that happens "happens for a reason", or that everything was "meant to be". Are they telling me that if they could change history, they would not prevent the holocaust? Or all of the other forms of suffering that have plagued our history? This seems to me like an extremely dangerous outlook.

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