thetoastman

Hm. To summarize...

We have all expressed our ignorance and exasperation with the surety of death and the surety(?) of non-existence.

Some of us have comforted ourselves by noting the similarity between the non-existence of afterdeath to the non-existence of before death.

(eg. Secular Elation's "I evaluate 'natural death' as the death of the body--which is inherently the death of the mind, of the consciousness. Sure, our memory will live on after our death, but we ourselves will not. Our minds will be gone." And, sweep's: "the fact that your consciousness has undergone a phase of none (0) to one (1) then back to none again, renders infinity irrelevant. When your body was made, infinity was made finite, and you were determined for existence.")

I am struck that there has been no mention at all of reincarnation. I suppose it's because there is no difference of opinion on this point. Do all of us happen to be convinced that we came "from nothing", that we were Zeros before we were Ones?
If so, I would like to ask: What if we did exist before birth? Either "floating around" waiting to be packaged, or living another life, of an animal or another person.

Thinking about it, though...I suppose that reincarnation of some kind would presuppose some kind of "soul" that is different and apart from the body (a possibility that, with certain scruples, I am willing to grant)... A presupposition it seems many people would be uncomfortable with. I'm curious: Are we all decided on that point?

If so, if everyone is agreed that there is no possibility of a soul/body distinction, may I ask that you help me out? It seems like a possibility to me, and if I am way off base there, you can understand, I don't want to be!

Has anyone read the Myth of Er, in Plato's Republic? It's a rather fascinating little tale about a man who returns to his body after 10 days (I think) of death, and comes telling a story of the afterlife. It involves the people arriving in hades (by boat! hehe), hearing an homelie about personal responsibility, then choosing a new life. They proceed to drink from the "river of forgetfulness", and go into their new life. The main point(s) of the story have not to do with the literal interpretation of the story, but it DOES capture my attention.

What's to think things don't happen like that? I mean, who knows? Death is the country from which no man has returned...

new poster eagerly awaiting,
thetoastman

thetoastman

Post script: This thread is in response to Secular Elation's "death" thread.

Just to clarify.

thetoastman

Malcolm

Originally posted by thetoastman:
Exactly.

No-one knows, everything that the various religions and non-religions claim about the after-life (or the fore-life) is simply supposition - or wishful thinking. I believe that the myths of heaven and hell or reincarnation or whatever are essentially made-up ideas to try to relieve a little of the existential angst which every human being experiences. Of course when the idea of an after-life/reincarnation becomes widely accepted, then there is a every opportunity for the power-hungry to claim special knowledge and therefore special powers to exploit the ignorant.

If there is not a shred of evidence for a hypothesis which has been around for thousands of years, why waste time debating it? We have to find ways of making lives meaningful here and now rather than basing our actions on some totally unprovable future existence.

Malcolm

p.s. don't worry, you won't end up as toast!

sakrilege

I cannot conceive of a soul without some physical mechnism to support it. Without the body there is no existance IMO.


BTW, welcome to IIDB!

AspenMama

Welcome! This is a great topic but I think more appropriate here in another forum.

Marduk

Reincarnation? Why not? This particular incarnation seemed easy enough to achieve. I don’t remember exerting much effort to go from nothingness to being in this life, I see no reason why the phenomena won’t occur again. I will lose my memories, personality and perspective of where I am and at what point in time relative to my previous incarnation, but so what, I’ll still catch a view of some world somewhere, whether it is in this galaxy in this universe or a new one (trillions of years can pass unnoticed when you are in 0 state, remember how it was before you were born? Of course not, no one does.)

thetoastman

Thanks! It's nice to feel welcomed.

Are you familiar with the "unity of experience" argument? I find it compelling. I'd be interested to hear what you think, sakrilege. I could present it if you'd like.


toastman

Slumtrimpet

Malcolm states:
"Of course when the idea of an after-life/reincarnation becomes widely accepted, then there is a every opportunity for the power-hungry to claim special knowledge and therefore special powers to exploit the ignorant."

I can understand this concept in reference to most religious concepts, but how would this happen with the idea of reincarnation?

Malcolm also states:
"If there is not a shred of evidence for a hypothesis which has been around for thousands of years, why waste time debating it? We have to find ways of making lives meaningful here and now rather than basing our actions on some totally unprovable future existence"

Again, I can see this in reference to most religious concepts, but again, reincarnation doesn't detract at all from the here and now. A belief in reincarnation doesn't discount the importance of the current life in favor of the next. If anything, what one does with the present life is of the utmost importance and not in the sense that one is expecting a reward or a punishment at the end. If I understand the concept correctly, it is a personal striving, not an adherence to outside dominion.

slumtrimpet

sakrilege

I am not familiar with the argument so please do present it.

Undercurrent

Coupled with the concept of Karma, it stifles any form of social justice. Despite the fact that the rich don't appear to deserve to be rich and the poor don't appear to deserve to be poor, they really do deserve their lot in life because of completely unverifyable virtue or vice in their past life. Don't bother to fight the injustice of it all; doing so will just earn you a shittier next life.

That's my moral beef with the concept of reincarnation. My scientific beef with the concept of reincarnation is that even if it happens, there's no way, even in principle to determine that it happens. A universe where reincarnation happened would be observationally identical to one where it didn't, but would be complicated by the need to introduce souls, and some sort of mechanism for transferring souls to new bodies. Ockam's razor slices it away.

My philisophical beef with the concept of reincarnation deals with the "wipe your memory" step in-between incarnations. I contend that wiping my memories counts as killing me, even if you don't destroy my body and allow a new personality to arise. The only reason myself and myself ten minutes ago are the same person is the all-but-ten-minutes of memories we share. The new personality would have no such connection to me, and would be a totally different person. In the Er legend, water from the "river of forgetfulness" is fatal poison.