NOGO

This is the verse in question

Heb 9:26
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

What is the consummation of the ages?
According to Layman it means the culmination of salvation history.
Now it should be obvious that the culmination of salvation history according to Christians is the coming, death and resurrection of Jesus. So in the context of Heb 9:26 this definition of consummation of the ages would not make much sense. Hebews 9:26 says that Jesus could have come on a yearly basis but instead chose to come only ONCE, when? at the consummation of salvation history? Nonsense! That is like saying that Jesus could have been born on March 11th or on June 10th but instead he chose to be born on Christmas day.
("Jesus chose to be born on Christmas day" is a non-statement since any day Jesus was born on would have been Christmas day. Similarly it is a non-statement to say that Jesus sacrificed himself at the culmination of salvation history since any day the sacrifice would have taken place would have been the culmination of salvation history..)

Layman accuses Doherty of translating 9:27-28 in a way that is different than all other similar appearances of the word “second” but here Layman does exactly the same thing. I am going to demonstrate Layman’s double standard.

The translation “consummation of the ages” is based on two Greek words which are transliterated as “sunteleia” and “aion”

Sunteleia means completion, consummation, or end
while aion can mean
1. forever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. the world, universe
3. period of time, age

I do not think that we will argue much over the first word. The second word “aion” is obviously time related but in context may mean this world or universe. It may also mean ever or forever or never however these definitions are of no interest here.

Layman’s definition would fit in item 3 above, ie a period of time or age. But which age are we talking about? Everything hinges on that. I will show evidence which demonstrate that “consummation of the ages” means “end of the world” as the KJV has it.

Let’s start with Hebrews itself
Heb 1:2
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

“In these last days” the author of Hebrews also believed that world was shortly coming to an end. Otherwise the last days of what? He author assumes that the reader will understand what he is talking about. So we are looking for the last days of something which every Christian of the time knew about. That something will become self evident as I give more examples. Also the word “world” here is the translation of the Greek word “aion” so “through whom he made the aion”.

Heb 6:5
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

“The age to come” as opposed to the present age
or
the world to come as opposed to the present world

The author of Hebrews is referring to the “good word of God” which he alluded to in verse 2. One can see that the words of God through his son are indications of “the age to come”. It is reasonable to assume that this age must end before the next can start, thus the “last days”. This is clearly another reference to the end of the world.

Heb 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

“worlds” here the word “aions” is in the plural but clearly means this world or this age.

So if in verse 9:26 this author says “the end of aions” he means the end of the world. If he meant the culmination of salvation history he would have said so with other words in order to avoid confusion.

Mt 12:32
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit
it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come

Matthew is using the word “aion” here not as the culmination of salvation history but as “world”.
Clearly he is talking about a future transition from one age to the next and this transition is without a doubt the end of the world.

No culmination of salvation history here.

Mt 13:39
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels .
Mt 13:40
"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire so shall it be at the end of the age

Here the exact same words are used as in Heb 9:26 “sunteleia” and “aion” and is translated as “end of the age” but could easily have been translated as “end of the world”.


Mt 13:49
"So it will be at the end of the age ; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous.

Same idea once again.

Mt 24:3
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives , the disciples came to Him privately, saying "Tell us, when will these things happen and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age ?"

Here again the same two words which is clearly a reference to the end of the world. In his answer Jesus speaks of the Sun and moon going dark and the stars falling to earth and of course his return.

Mt 28:20
teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo I am with you always , even to the end of the age."

The end of the world again.
Since this is after Jesus' sacrifice refered to in Heb 9:26 Jesus is certainly not telling them that he will be with them even to the culmination of salvation history.

Mr 10:30
but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age , houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms , along with persecutions ; and in the age to come , eternal life .

This verse also appears in Luke (see below). The present age is the one we experience now and the age to come is when Jesus returns. So the end of age is when eternal life starts ie the end of the world.

Lu 18:30
who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come , eternal life."


Lu 20:34
Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage ,
Lu 20:35
but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead , neither marry nor are given in marriage

Once again in this age people marry but in the age to come they don’t. So Luke would have understood that “end of the age” is the end of the world.

1Co 2:8
the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood ; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

This is a very interesting statement. Paul is saying that the rulers of “THIS AGE” killed Jesus yet Paul is writing some 30 years later probably around the time Hebrews was written. So for Paul the end of the age did not happen yet. Paul is still living in the same age as when Jesus was killed. But we do know that Paul was definitely still waiting for the end of the world which he thought was imminent.

Eph 1:21
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion , and every name that is named , not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Tit 2:12
instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly , righteously and godly in the present age ,
1Jo 2:17
And the world (aion) is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God abides forever.

Again usage of the word “aion” leaves no doubt about the fact that Christians were expecting the end of the world. Eph 1:21 refers to this age and the age to come, the present age being ungodly Tit 2:12 but it is passing away 1John 2:17

Here are a few more statements of the expected end of the world.

1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

James 5:8
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

Mt10:23
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


CONCLUSION

In the context of the NT “this age” is the same as saying “this world” and the “age to come” is when Jesus would return. This leaves only one interpretation for Hebrews 9:26

Jesus’ death and resurrection marked the beginning of the end, that is, the last generation.
Jesus could have sacrificed himself year after year but instead did it only once at the then end times ie the "last days".

In order to reverse this conclusion Layman must show that the words in questions were associated with another concept (culmination of salvation history) more frequently than the end of the world.

NOGO

In another thread Layman asked me for references. Now he has them but it does not seem that he is up to the challenge.

Layman

The adolescent chest-thumping on this website is almost unbearable.

This rant is about the lowest item on my priority list.

NOGO

This is the kind of arguement that will really convince all those skeptics out there.

You asked me for references pretending that my interpretation was really unreasonable and unfounded. Now that I rubbed your nose in the evidence you can see that there is no way that your interpretation can be defended. So, you resort to red herrings.

There is absolutely nothing in what I wrote that resembles rant in any shape or form. I stuck to the subject and nothing else.

If being shown evidence contrary to your beliefs is disturbing to you then this site is simply not for for you.

Ted Hoffman

Nogo,
Forget Layman.
I'd like to add something to your exposition of Hebrews 9:26. You focused largely on consummation of the ages but I would also like to add something onto that which might not be exactly on point, but that can further expose the authors platonic leanings and midrashic writing but more importantly, the idea that Christ had suffered many times since the world was created.
I am using NIV
Hebrews 9:26: The author says "he had to suffer"/"he needed to suffer". What does he base this necessity to suffer on? He bases it on an interpretation of the earthly sacrifices in the OT.
Hebrews 9: 22-23:
The law required it. Even in heaven, except, tha author says, better sacrifices are required in heaven. And just like in the High Priests scenario, it had to be done again and again. Thats why the author says Christ too, had to suffer since the creation of the world. Of course, the phrase "foundations of the earth" used by the flatearthers, notably the Psalmist and Isaiah among others, referred to the beginning of the world (Isaiah 51:13, Isaiah 48:13, Psalm 18:15, 1 Samuel 2:8).

Based on the fact that the author believed that Jesus had to suffer repeatedly since the creation of the world, its clear he believed in Christ Logos and not an earthly christ. This motif of christ logos did not require an earthly christ.

But one curious thing:
KJV says in Hebrew 9:12 and 9:26:
He says Christ entered once (in 12) then says he suffered many times (in 26) does it mean he suffered many times "outside the gate", then entered once and will appear once at the end of the world to sacrifice himself?

More importantly, the word "now" in 26, does it mean the author beleived that christ had already appeared? Or is it "now" in the sense of relating a story like "Now Noah had many wives and smoked pot..."?

Or does the author mean christ has already appeared but in the future (ie at the end of the ages/world) and that only those who believe in him will see him?
In the sense that beleivers will "arrive" at him?

I think this last interpretation is likely to be correct.

Geoff Hudson

NOGO,

It's always a good idea to look at adjacent verses:

(24)For [Christ] {the Spirit} did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered [heaven itself] {our spirit’s themselves}, {which can} now [to] appear [for us] in God’s presence.

(25)Nor did he enter [heaven] {our spirits} to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

(26)Then [Christ] {the Spirit} would have had to [suffer] {appear} many times since the creation of [the world] {MEN}.

But now he has appeared [once] for all at the end of the ages to do away with [sin] {impurity} by [the sacrifice of] himself.

(27)[Just as] {Because} MAN is destined to die [once], and after that to face judgement,

(28)[so Christ was] {the Spirit} [sacrificed] {APPEARED} [once] to take away the [sins] {impurity} of many people; and he will APPEAR [a second time] {again}, not to [bear sin] {purify}, but to bring [salvation] {judgement} to those who are [waiting for] {rejecting} him.

Note:
v.(26) MEN agrees with MAN in (27).
v.(27) "Once" is added by an editor who thinks he might die twice.
v.(28) "APPEARED agrees "APPPEAR". The Spirit can appear at different times through history - as he did to Moses.

Geoff

Geoff Hudson

Perhaps verse (24) might be better as:


(24)For [Christ] {the Spirit} did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered [heaven itself] {our spirit’s themselves}, [now] to [appear for] {purify} us in God’s presence.

Geoff

NOGO

I will have to look at this again.
I understood it this way:
"the suffered many times" is in relation to the high priest who brings blood to Yahweh every year. The author is comparing the high priest offering blood to Yahweh on earth to Jesus offering his blood to Yahweh in heaven. He then says that this does not mean that Jesus offered himself often because if he did he would have had to suffer often since the begining of the world. Instead he did only once at the end of the world.

I read the word "now" to mean the end times. The author believed that the sacrifice whether on earth or in heaven was a recent event.

What is strange here as Doherty points out is that the author concentrates on what is going on in heaven as far as Jesus' sacrifice is concerned without ever mentioning that his death actually occured on Earth.


Sorry I don't follow.
The author of Hebrews is clearly talking about a precise event that occured only once at these end times (1st century). This event had to do with putting sins away forever by the sacrifice of himself.

I agree with Doherty that the author of Hebrews is not talking about a human Jesus. He is talking about the word of God who created the world and has manifested himself in these end times (ie the first century CE). This, however, does not remove the possibility of a human Jesus.

NOGO

Since Layman cannot be counted on to defend the Christian view of Heb 9:26 perhaps other believers will take up the challenge.

NOGO

It seems that no Christian will touch this one.
I wonder why?