Freethought & Rationalism Archive

emotional · 04-25-2002, 10:24 PM

People often read the Bible through the eyes of later philosophy, applying such ideas to it as that God has no form and no body, and that other gods do not exist at all. Yet the Bible, particularly the Hebrew Scriptures (OT), is of an older, more primitive mindset than that, and the Gnostics' deriding of the Biblegod as a "tribal warrior-god" was right on the mark.

The first commandment is a case in point:

lo yihyeh l'kha elohim aherim 'al panai - literally, "thou shalt not have other gods in preference to me".

It does not say other gods do not exist. Compare mi khamokha ba'elim YHWH ("Who is like thee among the gods, YHWH?") by Moses later. This also explains the ridiculous phrase "a jealous God" in the same Decalogue.

"Jealous God" - jealous of what? It's like saying Bill Gates is jealous of someone's money. It could make sense only if there are other gods.

"Thou shalt not have other gods in preference to me" - not that they do not exist, but that the chosen people must be a faithful wife unto her husband God, and never go with other men/gods. This is why idolatry is often called "going a-whoring" in the OT.

God the Husband, his followers the faithful wife, or else... but there must have been a lot of abusive behaviour towards the wife throughout history, and we know what happens to a wife who insists on staying with her abusive husband

(edited for typo fix)

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: devnet ]

Toto · 04-25-2002, 11:06 PM

Good post, but I thought that the "whoring" referred to temple prostitution, which was a staple of the competing Canaanite religions.

spin · 04-26-2002, 07:13 AM

It's worth noting that Yahweh had his consort as indicated in the inscriptions at Kuntillet Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom, "lyhwh ... wl'$rtw", "by Yahweh ... and his Asherah". Asherah was usually represented in cultic places as a tree and the Lord, be he Baal or Yahweh was represented by a large stone pillar. Note Joshua 24:26, where Joshua erected a stone by an oak tree. High places featured the cultic representations of the pillar and the tree, though the tree later became stylised in the biblical accounts.

So, Yahweh had his wife, Asherah, and they were worshipped together in the 9th century BCE according to the inscriptions and were almost certainly worshipped through till the Babylonian invasion. There was a high place outside Jerusalem which was in operation in the 7th and 6th centuries.

Isaiah 50:1 talks of Yahweh divorcing the mother of the Jews.

Haran · 04-26-2002, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spin:
Note Joshua 24:26, where Joshua erected a stone by an oak tree.

Maybe I'm just not remembering correctly, but wasn't this the same stone that God asked Joshua to set up...the one with God's Law written on it for everyone to see and remember?

Quote:

Isaiah 50:1 talks of Yahweh divorcing the mother of the Jews.

These questions in Isaiah seem to be rhetorical questions Yahweh is asking of Israel, challeging the errant beliefs of the apostate...<a href="http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm" target="_blank">NET</a>(verses and notes)

Finally, sure there were many in Israel who believed in some of the things you both mention. The Bible says so. It also says that God and others were angry with them for it.

I'm not sure I see any of the verses mentioned in the first post as necessarily meaning that other Gods exist. They could simply mean that the people to whom God is talking to believe that there are other Gods and he doesn't want them following them. Finally, what do you think of "progressive revelation" which sort of nullifies the whole issue?

Haran

Kosh · 04-26-2002, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spin:
 Asherah was usually represented in cultic places as a tree...<snip> High places featured the cultic representations of the pillar and the tree, though the tree later became stylised in the biblical accounts

well, that certainly explains alot. Esp. why
Adam was instructed not to "eat of the tree
of life". Yhwh truly was a jealous God!

SmashingIdols · 04-26-2002, 12:33 PM

Actually, the original poster was right on the money. The Israelites believed in multiple Gods, of which their God was the most powerful after repeated contests between the Gods (a very Hellenistic concept as well).

The biggest struggle within the Levitican priesthood was over which God was the correct one to follow:

1. Yahweh
2. Ba'al

That these were two seperate Gods is apparent in the story of Elijah. Sorry I do not have a Bible handy, although I remember the story very well.

Elijah brings out all those who are persuading Israel to follow Ba'al - and calls them to a challenge with Yahweh.

He tells them to see which God would have the power to summon fire from the sky - thereby proving his superiority over the other.

However (and this is most interesting) he NEVER claims Ba'al to be a false God; to the contrary he urges them to call Ba'al, stating "He is a God... call upon him."

Ba'al fails to send fire. Eliljah then slays a bullock, lays him upon an altar surrounded with 12 stones (supposedly symbolizing Israel), and calls upon "his" God to display his might. Fire comes down, consumes the "offering," and Elijah has all the followers of Ba'al put to death.

This was the climax of the struggle between Ba'al and the God of Israel - but all through this story Ba'al was strongly referred to as another Being like God.

Haran · 04-26-2002, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmashingIdols:
However (and this is most interesting) he NEVER claims Ba'al to be a false God; to the contrary he urges them to call Ba'al, stating "He is a God... call upon him."

Don't forget the part where Elijah mocks them and says: "Shout louder! Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened."

To me it is possible that Elijah is doing to the prophets of Ba'al what many atheists here try to do to theists, even though they don't believe. Does Elijah really believe they have true God? Doesn't seem like it to me...

Haran

jdawg2 · 04-26-2002, 04:09 PM

IIRC, in Exodus there's a reference to him "slaying all the gods of Egypt", and combine that with the whole jealous god thing, makes one wonder...

SmashingIdols · 04-26-2002, 04:15 PM

Okay, except the angel of Ba'al standing on the mountain top telling the priest to curse the people of Israel as they come by...

No, it is quite clear in the old testament that Ba'al is a god, and is the enemy of Israel's God.

Furthermore, I have the parallel bible - and the language seems to indicate he is saying "Call louder for he IS a God....yada yada yada"

The point was he couldn't bring fire down from the sky, despite being a God.

SmashingIdols · 04-26-2002, 04:33 PM

Let's really get down to it. Worship which god, when, by whom?

Did the Israelites even have knowledge of any of this monotheistic stuff (or Moses, the Flood, etc) before the priesthood returned from Babylon (where they observed a perfect orthodoxy)?

Read II Kings 23 chapter.

It raises some huge questions.

04-25-2002, 10:24 PM	#1
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	OT Henotheism: God the Husband People often read the Bible through the eyes of later philosophy, applying such ideas to it as that God has no form and no body, and that other gods do not exist at all. Yet the Bible, particularly the Hebrew Scriptures (OT), is of an older, more primitive mindset than that, and the Gnostics' deriding of the Biblegod as a "tribal warrior-god" was right on the mark. The first commandment is a case in point: lo yihyeh l'kha elohim aherim 'al panai - literally, "thou shalt not have other gods in preference to me". It does not say other gods do not exist. Compare mi khamokha ba'elim YHWH ("Who is like thee among the gods, YHWH?") by Moses later. This also explains the ridiculous phrase "a jealous God" in the same Decalogue. "Jealous God" - jealous of what? It's like saying Bill Gates is jealous of someone's money. It could make sense only if there are other gods. "Thou shalt not have other gods in preference to me" - not that they do not exist, but that the chosen people must be a faithful wife unto her husband God, and never go with other men/gods. This is why idolatry is often called "going a-whoring" in the OT. God the Husband, his followers the faithful wife, or else... but there must have been a lot of abusive behaviour towards the wife throughout history, and we know what happens to a wife who insists on staying with her abusive husband (edited for typo fix) [ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: devnet ]</p>

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04-25-2002, 11:06 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Good post, but I thought that the "whoring" referred to temple prostitution, which was a staple of the competing Canaanite religions.

04-26-2002, 07:13 AM	#3
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	It's worth noting that Yahweh had his consort as indicated in the inscriptions at Kuntillet Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom, "lyhwh ... wl'$rtw", "by Yahweh ... and his Asherah". Asherah was usually represented in cultic places as a tree and the Lord, be he Baal or Yahweh was represented by a large stone pillar. Note Joshua 24:26, where Joshua erected a stone by an oak tree. High places featured the cultic representations of the pillar and the tree, though the tree later became stylised in the biblical accounts. So, Yahweh had his wife, Asherah, and they were worshipped together in the 9th century BCE according to the inscriptions and were almost certainly worshipped through till the Babylonian invasion. There was a high place outside Jerusalem which was in operation in the 7th and 6th centuries. Isaiah 50:1 talks of Yahweh divorcing the mother of the Jews.

04-26-2002, 12:33 PM	#6
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	Actually, the original poster was right on the money. The Israelites believed in multiple Gods, of which their God was the most powerful after repeated contests between the Gods (a very Hellenistic concept as well). The biggest struggle within the Levitican priesthood was over which God was the correct one to follow: 1. Yahweh 2. Ba'al That these were two seperate Gods is apparent in the story of Elijah. Sorry I do not have a Bible handy, although I remember the story very well. Elijah brings out all those who are persuading Israel to follow Ba'al - and calls them to a challenge with Yahweh. He tells them to see which God would have the power to summon fire from the sky - thereby proving his superiority over the other. However (and this is most interesting) he NEVER claims Ba'al to be a false God; to the contrary he urges them to call Ba'al, stating "He is a God... call upon him." Ba'al fails to send fire. Eliljah then slays a bullock, lays him upon an altar surrounded with 12 stones (supposedly symbolizing Israel), and calls upon "his" God to display his might. Fire comes down, consumes the "offering," and Elijah has all the followers of Ba'al put to death. This was the climax of the struggle between Ba'al and the God of Israel - but all through this story Ba'al was strongly referred to as another Being like God.

04-26-2002, 04:09 PM	#8
jdawg2 Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Cedar Hill, TX USA Posts: 113	IIRC, in Exodus there's a reference to him "slaying all the gods of Egypt", and combine that with the whole jealous god thing, makes one wonder...

04-26-2002, 04:15 PM	#9
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	Okay, except the angel of Ba'al standing on the mountain top telling the priest to curse the people of Israel as they come by... No, it is quite clear in the old testament that Ba'al is a god, and is the enemy of Israel's God. Furthermore, I have the parallel bible - and the language seems to indicate he is saying "Call louder for he IS a God....yada yada yada" The point was he couldn't bring fire down from the sky, despite being a God.

04-26-2002, 04:33 PM	#10
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	Let's really get down to it. Worship which god, when, by whom? Did the Israelites even have knowledge of any of this monotheistic stuff (or Moses, the Flood, etc) before the priesthood returned from Babylon (where they observed a perfect orthodoxy)? Read II Kings 23 chapter. It raises some huge questions.

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