Kantian

Ah, it's the persecution complex Farseeker mentioned* that dwelled with me a bit- and once i came on that tidbit i felt compelled to share it here. As you can see i am no "classical scholar" but that the lurkers and other participants in this thread may not be, either.

• Farseeker:"It was cruelly suppressed, but survived and flourished."

~Radical subjectivist~

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Immanuel Kant ]</p>

Primal

Blaming atheism for soemthing is like blaming nonracism for something. How often do you hear "Well Stalin and Mao were nonracist and look at what they did."

Blaming Xianity for something is more easily compared to blaming racism for something.

Nonbelief is too wide open a field to blame or praise for very much, whereas belief is far more limited in scope and thus more open to criticisms, both good and bad.

David M. Payne

FS, what Immanuel Kant and Vorkosigan said above, as well as what everyone else said on this thread to show you the errors of your thinking. We work with logic and common sense in reaching our opinions on the non-existence of God and the evil that religion has done and will do to humanity. You have a nice pair of rose-colored glasses there, and as I have pointed out before, opinions based on superstition and belief in non-existent beings will never win you an argument here. But you and Meeee keep this thread alive for all the lurkers to ponder, so in a way you are doing us a favor by allowing us to demolish your arguments over and over again. Keep trying, maybe you can find the Holy Grail argument that shows us the error of our thinking. Maybe not. My money is on us atheists/agnostics. Thank you for your time.

David

DigitalDruid

meeee wrote:
Really? Must be from an yet to be published biography of Hitler! But what has been published so far seems to point the other way.

In 1914 when German troops marched into Belgium they wore belts inscribed with the word 'Gott mit uns' ('God with us'). Doesn't seem to me their boss was an atheist! Rather sounds something akin to the war cry of Christian soldiers blessed and authorized by the pope during the bloody rampages of the Crusades.

I think it is fair to say that earlier bloody Christian progroms in Germany contributed to the vitiated atmosphere where Holocaust was possible (and psychologically more "acceptable"). In 1096 A.D. Germany at the beginning of the First Crusade, there was bloody persecutions of the Jews. Along the cities on the Rhine River alone, 12,000 Jews were killed by marauding Christians. The Jews were branded second only to the Moslems as the enemies of Christendom. So while it was Hitler's own rabid nationalism and anti-semitism that led to the Holocaust, I think Christianity deserves some "credit" for creating a vitiated atmosphere with its earlier progroms.

FarSeeker

Digit, not that any Atheist on the board is interested in accuracy, but Hitler was a lowly Austrian corporal in the German army in 1914, and there was a Jewish pilot (ace?) in the German air force who had a swastika painted on his plane. The Crusades were a typical POLITICAL military action in response to a call for help from the Byzantium Empire (which had been under attack for what, a couple of centuries?) much like the US responce to aid England in WW2. There were also progroms in the Atheist controlled Soviet Union, and there are currently progrom against Christians in Atheist controlled China too, don't be getting too self-righteous on us now. Besides, Jesus was a Jew. And look up Haman in the Bible.

Don't you think Athism deserves some "credit" for creating a vitiated atmosphere for those countries's progroms? How about the Tiananmen Square Masacre? KAL007? I wonder why there is no demand from the leaders of the Atheist Societies (American Atheists, Sec. Hum. Societies, etc.) for the prosecustion of those murderers now that at least the USSR has fallen. Of course, we still have that Atheist in the US a few years back that walked into a church and started shooting people. He found it to be a rational act.

The war in Afghanistan, however, was an invitaion for an Atheist government to aid an ally when the ally assassinated the invitor and decided to take over. Which was promptly follow by the use of bombs in the shapes of toys and other things dropped for the purpose of maiming children and others.

These are the acts of sinful mankind acting on their own rational impulses. What you call rational thought is only what you think is right and is unlikely to be totally shared by anyone else on the planet. For example, is there anyone on Earth that totally agrees with you on everything you believe? I bet not. Yet you will no doubt claim to have reached all your conclusions rationally.

But, hey everyone, this is way off topic.
Go do a search on Hitler, read the thread they had back in 2000 and start a new one.

FarSeeker

Or blaming the Jews for something, like Hitler did.

I challenge you to prove that "nonbelief" exists. Humans just don't think that way; they act for what they believe, not for what they believe not. Although I am reluctant to say this because of where I first heard it, it is inescapable: ideas have consequences.

Atheism always has a world-view built around it, and invariably it follows this sequence: "If there is no God, there are no God-given laws or rules, ergo I (or mankind) can make up my (its) own." The Atheist posters on this thread have yet to provide a rational Atheistic reason for claiming that Hitler acted immorally based on their previous agreed upon statement that morals are chosen by the society that exercises them.

So while Hitler acted immorally under the laws of the Christian God, he acted in congruously with Atheism.

FarSeeker

What interpolation?

Vorkosigan

Atheism always has a world-view built around it, and invariably it follows this sequence: "If there is no God, there are no God-given laws or rules, ergo I (or mankind) can make up my (its) own."

Confucian atheism? Buddhist atheism? Metaphysical naturalists? New Agers?

You are entirely correct. In the absence of gods, we are free to make up our own rules. Thank god. I'd sure hate to have to kill my son if he gave me some lip, slay my wife if I found out she wasn't a virgin at marriage, or burn helpless animals on altars.

Jack the Bodiless

And I have previously invited YOU to condemn the September 11th attacks (performed by theists in the name of essentially the same God you worship). Unless I've missed something, you have failed to do so. Therefore I will hereby assume that you approve of them.

So why do you think that flying airliners into buildings in the name of God is OK, Farseeker?
Are you sure about that? Last I heard, the claims of booby-trapped toys were propaganda.
Blatant contradiction. If we can make up our own rational moral code, then this gives us a reason for claiming that Hitler acted immorally. I can confidently claim this because he violated MY moral code: therefore he was immoral in my opinion. And "mankind's morals" are the collective opinions of all of humanity.

You also believe in subjective morality: you believe that the personal opinions of ONE PERSON dictate what is right. Or, to be more precise, the personal opinions of a handful of people who have attributed their own opinions to one mythical person.
Why do you claim that Hitler "acted immorally under the laws of the Christian God"? I can provide plenty of Old Testament verses that support genocide. Name ONE commandment that Hitler broke while in power. No, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" does not count: that applies only to murder (i.e. illegal killing). While Hitler was Fuhrer, his killings were legal.

Jack the Bodiless

Incidentally, Farseeker, you have mentioned KAL007 several times, as an example of an atrocity committed "in the name of atheism". And you have stated that no humanist organization has ever condemned it.

Firstly, how do you know they have not?

Secondly, your own "Christian" America has carried out a very similar atrocity, the shooting down of an Iranian airliner by the USS Vincennes. Therefore, by your own logic, this was done "in the name of Christianity" (actually, both incidents were blunders). Please post a link to a thread where you have condemned the US for the Vincennes incident and demanded the prosecution of those responsible. If you can't, then please link to such a condemnation from a specifically Christian organization, like a church.

If you can't, I will assume that "Christianity thinks that shooting down airliners is OK".