Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ps418 · 09-17-2002, 01:45 PM

How many names do you want hon? I can think of 3 offhand. Professor John Morris, PH.D he is a geological engineer, Ryan and Pitman are geologists.

Ryan and Pitman do not believe in anything remotely resembling a global flood. They argue only that the Black Sea basin was rapidly filled.

John Morris, on the other hand, does believe in a global flood, but his arguments are somewhat less than convincing. See for instance <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/frank_zindler/morris-zindler.html" target="_blank">this 'debate' between John Morris and Frank Zindler.</a> So, of the three you listed, two definitely do not believe in a global flood, and the third is something of a loon who has much difficulty getting his facts straight.

Also, the vapor canopy is total pseudoscience. It wont work, unless you want to appeal to a bunch of miracles to make it work, that is. See <a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/canopy.htm" target="_blank">The Demise and Fall of the Water Vapor Canopy: A Fallen Creationist Idea, by Glenn Morton, former card-carrying ICR 'scientist.'</a>

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: ps418 ]

Marduk · 09-17-2002, 02:54 PM

Amie , why is belief in the Noah story so important to you? I thought you said you were Catholic, it is not necessary for a Catholic to believe that this is actual history. The Pope already gave the thumbs up to evolution as well, quite awhile ago. This Biblical inerrancy stuff is from Fundieland, not mainstream RC. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Bubba · 09-17-2002, 02:54 PM

Way to go Patrick!

Bubba <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Amie · 09-17-2002, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:
Amie , why is belief in the Noah story so important to you? I thought you said you were Catholic, it is not necessary for a Catholic to believe that this is actual history.

Hi there marduck
The story of the ark really is not so important to me, ultimately it has nothing to do with my life. It is merely something that I believe in. Yes the RC has given the green light so to speak for evolution. finally. now I need to back up a bit and respond to some questions.
Amie~

Tristan Scott · 09-17-2002, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anti-Creedance Front:
Let me shed some light on the subject. The Enuma Elish, the Sumerian epic, almost completely mirrors the events in Genesis. Abraham (or Abram to those picky people) travelled to Judah from Ur.
It's not that difficult. Christianity has so many roots in Mesopotamian mythology it's ridiculous. Not to mention YHVH (otherwise known as EL ohim), shared his name with the Canaanite chief god. Coincidence? I think not. Nuff said.

Nuff said? Hardly. How do you figure the Enuma Elish "almost completely mirrors the events in Genesis"? Somewhat similar, ok, but it hardly "completely mirrors" it. I don't dissagree with your conclusions, but it is hardly 'nuff said.

Infinity Lover · 09-17-2002, 03:42 PM

You go girl!!

(dunnow; just felt like saying that)

ps418 · 09-17-2002, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:

Hi there marduck
The story of the ark really is not so important to me, ultimately it has nothing to do with my life. Amie~

Unless your life is based in some way on a literal interpetation of the Bible, in which case the falsification of the biblical claims regarding the age of the earth and Noah's Flood would be quite devastating. Just ask John Morris. He basically thinks that if the earth is old, then Christians should throw away their bibles.

Amie · 09-17-2002, 03:48 PM

There was a question asked about the animals:
The bible states that the animals came to Noah(Genesis6:20) the bible does not state how this was done.
I do not know all of the hows and whys. I wish I did. It is difficult to have an answer for all of the hows and whys of something that was not recorded in detail. I agree it is difficult to look at our world today and imagine re-colonization. VERY DIFFICULT. However not out of the question. When Krakatoa errupted in 1883 the island remnant remained lifeless for years, but was eventually taken over by a variety of species, including insects, worms, birds, lizzards, snakes and even some mammals. This is merely one example of life finding a way.
Now about the marsupials. People seem to think that they must have evolved in australia. However fossil marsupials have been found on every continent. Monotremes were thought to only be in Australia however in 1991 there was a scientific discovery of a fossil platypus tooth found in South America. I think that migration between Australia and other area was entirely possible at the time. Populations of animals may have had quite a long time to migrate, perhaps over generations. The continents we now have, with their flood deposited sedimentary rock are not the same as whatever continents would have been in the pre-flood world. We also dont have the information to how animals were distributed before the flood. Genesis1:9 suggests there may have been only 1 landmass. For all we know kangaroos watched Noah build the ark. I wish i had all the answers. I don't. The most we can all do is specualte. I have my perception. You have yours.
Amie~

Marduk · 09-17-2002, 03:49 PM

Tristan has a point, the Enuma Elish is pretty obtuse; Marduk battles Tiamat, the gods get jumpy, a whole tablet of different names for Marduk and the creation of the human slaves. The Flood Stuff is from The Epic of Gilgamesh. More Biblical events pop up in other stories; Enmakar and the Gods of Aratta among others. There is a book that lists them all, “The Chaldean Genesis” I think, by Smith

Amie · 09-17-2002, 04:02 PM

The date: I don't know.
The problem with an exact date is the dates are all over the place. And the one that I have found is 2304B.C which would conflict with archaeology. I will ask two of my old theology professors and see what they say about this...I have several dates here and none are close to one another. I'll need some time on this one.
Amie~

09-17-2002, 01:45 PM	#101
ps418 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 1,840	How many names do you want hon? I can think of 3 offhand. Professor John Morris, PH.D he is a geological engineer, Ryan and Pitman are geologists. Ryan and Pitman do not believe in anything remotely resembling a global flood. They argue only that the Black Sea basin was rapidly filled. John Morris, on the other hand, does believe in a global flood, but his arguments are somewhat less than convincing. See for instance <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/frank_zindler/morris-zindler.html" target="_blank">this 'debate' between John Morris and Frank Zindler.</a> So, of the three you listed, two definitely do not believe in a global flood, and the third is something of a loon who has much difficulty getting his facts straight. Also, the vapor canopy is total pseudoscience. It wont work, unless you want to appeal to a bunch of miracles to make it work, that is. See <a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/canopy.htm" target="_blank">The Demise and Fall of the Water Vapor Canopy: A Fallen Creationist Idea, by Glenn Morton, former card-carrying ICR 'scientist.'</a> [ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: ps418 ]</p>

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09-17-2002, 02:54 PM	#102
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Amie , why is belief in the Noah story so important to you? I thought you said you were Catholic, it is not necessary for a Catholic to believe that this is actual history. The Pope already gave the thumbs up to evolution as well, quite awhile ago. This Biblical inerrancy stuff is from Fundieland, not mainstream RC. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

09-17-2002, 02:54 PM	#103
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Way to go Patrick! Bubba <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

09-17-2002, 03:42 PM	#106
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	You go girl!! (dunnow; just felt like saying that)

09-17-2002, 03:48 PM	#108
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	There was a question asked about the animals: The bible states that the animals came to Noah(Genesis6:20) the bible does not state how this was done. I do not know all of the hows and whys. I wish I did. It is difficult to have an answer for all of the hows and whys of something that was not recorded in detail. I agree it is difficult to look at our world today and imagine re-colonization. VERY DIFFICULT. However not out of the question. When Krakatoa errupted in 1883 the island remnant remained lifeless for years, but was eventually taken over by a variety of species, including insects, worms, birds, lizzards, snakes and even some mammals. This is merely one example of life finding a way. Now about the marsupials. People seem to think that they must have evolved in australia. However fossil marsupials have been found on every continent. Monotremes were thought to only be in Australia however in 1991 there was a scientific discovery of a fossil platypus tooth found in South America. I think that migration between Australia and other area was entirely possible at the time. Populations of animals may have had quite a long time to migrate, perhaps over generations. The continents we now have, with their flood deposited sedimentary rock are not the same as whatever continents would have been in the pre-flood world. We also dont have the information to how animals were distributed before the flood. Genesis1:9 suggests there may have been only 1 landmass. For all we know kangaroos watched Noah build the ark. I wish i had all the answers. I don't. The most we can all do is specualte. I have my perception. You have yours. Amie~

09-17-2002, 03:49 PM	#109
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Tristan has a point, the Enuma Elish is pretty obtuse; Marduk battles Tiamat, the gods get jumpy, a whole tablet of different names for Marduk and the creation of the human slaves. The Flood Stuff is from The Epic of Gilgamesh. More Biblical events pop up in other stories; Enmakar and the Gods of Aratta among others. There is a book that lists them all, “The Chaldean Genesis” I think, by Smith

09-17-2002, 04:02 PM	#110
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	The date: I don't know. The problem with an exact date is the dates are all over the place. And the one that I have found is 2304B.C which would conflict with archaeology. I will ask two of my old theology professors and see what they say about this...I have several dates here and none are close to one another. I'll need some time on this one. Amie~

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