Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EggplantTrent · 07-17-2003, 02:46 AM

I'm not sure if this is the right forum to post this in, but here I go.

I'm in a debate with a person over the existence of god and he brought up the virgin of guadalupe as proof of God's (as in the christian god) existence.

Quote:

there are miracles that exist today the one im going to bring up is the miracle of the virgin of guadalupe. i made a post about this on a different page and no one had said anything about it.basically juan deigo sees the virgin mary and she tells him to tell the bishop to build a church where she appeared. juan deigo goes to the bishop but the bishop refuses.juan deigo then sees mary again and she gives him a bunch of roses(which were growing out of season) to give to the bishop.when juan deigo takes the roses out of his cloak for the bishop a miraculous picture of the virgin mary was imprinted on his cloak.to this day it still has not decayed after existing for over 400 years.there is no scientific explanation for this.also there are no paintstrokes on the image.also in the eyes of the virgin mary on the cloak there are microscopic images of poeple like the bishop.

obviously this is a true miracle.there is no other explanation other than it was truly mary that appeared to juan diego.i dont see how this can be ignored when there is no other explanation other than it was truly mary.

Does anyone have any information regarding this "miracle"? Is it real or bogus?

EggplantTrent

contracycle · 07-17-2003, 02:51 AM

A quick google reveals the following:

Quote:

Virgin of Guadalupe a Fraud, Says Abbot
by Conrad Goeringer

June 10, 1996

(Editor's Note: Developments last week in both Colombia and Mexico clearly demonstrate how religious consciousness can leads to social epidemics of fear, anxiety and nagging doubt. While Colombians were packing churches in fear of the possible arrival of the Anti-christ mass media in the country of Mexico was reflecting a virtual panic over the events described in the following article. Is this just another example of pre-Millennialist angst? Read on.)

Debate, accusations and anger erupted last week throughout Mexico amidst charges that "the Mother of all Mexicans" -- the Virgin of Guadalupe -- is a legend or hoax. Abbot Guillermo Schulemburg, who operates the enormous Mexico City basilica build in honor of the minor deity, was quoted in an Italian magazine as saying that the peasant Juan Diego (to whom the Virgin supposedly appeared) never existed. According to Reuters, that admission is having the effect of "casting the entire legend into doubt."

According to the legend, the Virgin of Guadalupe appeared to Diego on a hilltop near Mexico City -- a site which, coincidentally, was sacred to Aztec Indians who populated the region. The dark-skinned apparition supposedly told Juan Diego to construct a temple in her honor; she was soon dubbed the Virgin of Guadalupe, referring to an Aztec term "Coatlallope" which means "the one who crushed the serpent."

All of which is interesting, especially to religious skeptics who see various social and political factors at work in constructing the legend -- not a metaphysical apparition. Present-day Mexico City sits on top of the old Aztec Island capitol once known as Tenochtitlan. After the founding of the city, the theocratic empire quickly absorbed neighboring tribal groups through a series of "flower wars", and eventually included a good portion of modern Mexico and ranged as far south as Guatamala. In 1521, the Spaniard Hernando Cortes forged an alliance with discontented tribes, and crushed the "Triple Alliance" which ruled the Aztec state.

While the Aztec empire was warlike and practiced religious rituals of blood sacrifice, Cortes and his Catholic missionaries began their own bloody campaign to dismantle the culture and enslave the population. Huge amounts of goal were appropriated and shipped to Spain (or ended up as sunken treasure which is still sought today.) Meanwhile, Christian missionaries began mass-conversion of the newly colonized Indians, and started to graft Catholic rituals and symbols onto the old religious metaphors. The giant Aztec Temple of the Sun was demolished, and rubble from it and other structures was used to fill in the surrounding swampland, including Lake Texcoco. On the site of the old Temple was erected an enormous Catholic cathedral.

With the political colonization complete, Catholic authorities moved to finish off the social, religious and mental colonization of the indigenous peoples. Was the "Virgin of Guadalupe" part of this process?

Today, the Virgin is a national symbol. Notes Reuters: "Known simply as 'La Virgen' throughout Mesoamerica, her image, which miraculously appeared on Juan Diego's cloak, is standard decoration in any Mexican home or car." The site of the alleged apparition was earlier a shrine devoted to the worship of the Indian goddess, Tonantzin, known as "Our Mother."

The Abbot Tells All

The recent flap began when the Mexican daily paper Reforma quoted Abbot Schulemburg as saying "(Juan Diego) is a symbol, not a reality." The abbot, who is now 81, then claimed he was misquoted, and Archbishop Sergio Obeso Rivera commented that "The statement of the abbot must have been misinterpreted because you just can't say that (Diego did not exist.)"

Schulemburg's quote was first thought to have been published in the Italian magazine "30 Giorno": but it then turned out that the Giroro article was based on an interview given "months earlier" (Reuters) with the local Catholic publication known as Ixtus. Reuters reported that "In that interview -- never denied by the abbot -- Schulemburg said Juan Diego symbolized the marriage between Catholicism and traditional Indian religions and said his beatification recognized a 'cult', not a real person."

Associated Press reported similar wording. Abbot Schulenburg (sic) is reported to have said that the 1990 beatification of Juan Diego by the Pope "is a recognition of a cult. It is not a recognition of the physical, real existence of a person."

AP also reports that "small protests" broke out once the statement was made public, and that "Demonstrators scrawled graffiti on church walls vilifying the abbot and demanding his ouster."

Even so, local religious fanatics are apparently unaware that Abbot Schulemburg is not alone in his opinions. "Some church leaders," noted AP last week, "argued the apparition of the brown-skinned Virgin was a fable created to allow the Indians to continue to worship their own goddess. Others said the Spanish made up the story to help convert Mexico's Indians to Catholicism."

The man who orchestrated the campaign for the beatification to sainthood of Juan Diego is now demanding that Abbot Schulemburg resign.

A final word about the Virgin of Guadalupe. Today, she is depicted as having fair skin; she stands on the horns of a bull, said to symbolize fertility and potency, or on the outline of a crescent moon -- another symbol of the earth goddess.

fando · 07-17-2003, 10:53 AM

Fascinating. Now I have more insight into the symbol my father jokingly refers to as the Virgin of Guacamole. (Don't mention this to latin catholics, it'll piss them off

)

ps418 · 07-17-2003, 11:00 AM

Now would be a good time to remind you all that Rasputin has been making miraculous appearances as well, for instance in cat ears. Here's proof:

Obviously, this is a miracle as well.

Thanks to Piscez for posting that a few months ago!

Patrick

Lobstrosity · 07-17-2003, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418
Now would be a good time to remind you all that Rasputin has been making miraculous appearances as well, for instance in cat ears.

Hmm, for some reason I'm not seeing it.

MortalWombat · 07-17-2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
Hmm, for some reason I'm not seeing it.

Look at the cat's ear, then look at this:

Lobstrosity · 07-17-2003, 11:15 PM

Oh shit, now I see it! I wasn't looking at the right part of the ear... Whoa, that's awesome.

Thor Q. Mada · 07-18-2003, 01:26 AM

Trust me, there are no virgins in Guadeloupe. The French were there.

liamo · 07-18-2003, 03:57 AM

Here is another take on the subject:

Juan Diego, The Saint That Never Was

Excerpt:

Quote:

This story has several holes. First of all, Bishop Zumarraga wasn�t yet a bishop. He wasn�t consecrated until 1534. Second, up to his death in 1548 Zumarraga never mentioned anything concerning this matter. Finally, in a catechism he wrote the year before his death he clearly stated: �The Redeemer of the world doesn�t want any more miracles, because they are no longer necessary.� This bishop�s silence�more, his hostility toward latter-day miracles�is eloquent. No one would write about the supposed apparitions for more than a hundred years.

The cult of the virgin on the hill of Tepeyac starts around 1550. The first temple was built a couple of years later, under Zumarraga�s successor Alonso de Montufar. Bishop Montufar is known to have commissioned the now-sacred image from Marcos Cipac de Aquino, an Indian painter famous throughout the regions north of the city. The painter based his initial sketch on a previously existing image of the Virgin of Guadalupe, already revered as the patroness of Extremadura, a province of Spain.

As early as September 1556, Francisco de Bustamante, provincial head of Mexico�s Franciscans, read a memorable sermon in which he clearly dismissed the whole myth: �The devotion that has been growing in a chapel dedicated to Our Lady, called of Guadalupe, in this city is greatly harmful for the natives, because it makes them believe that the image painted by Marcos the Indian is in any way miraculous.�

In 1569, Martin Enriquez de Almanza, fourth viceroy of Mexico, denounced the cult of the Virgin of Guadalupe as a harmful imposture, indeed as disguised worship of the Aztec goddess Tonantzin.

Olimon�s book also surveys the studies made upon the so-called miraculous cloth itself. In 1982, Guillermo Schulenburg, Abbot of the Basilica of Guadalupe, had the image examined by an expert art restorer. Jose Sol Rosales determined that the picture was executed using different variations of the technique now known as template painting. The pigments are a mixture of caccus cacti extract, calcium sulphate, and soot commonly used in the sixteenth century. (In 1996, Schulenburg would be forced to resign of after publicly stating that Juan Diego was a mythical figure.)

Liam

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-17-2003, 10:53 AM	#3
fando Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 1,372	Fascinating. Now I have more insight into the symbol my father jokingly refers to as the Virgin of Guacamole. (Don't mention this to latin catholics, it'll piss them off )

07-17-2003, 11:00 AM	#4
ps418 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 1,840	Now would be a good time to remind you all that Rasputin has been making miraculous appearances as well, for instance in cat ears. Here's proof: Obviously, this is a miracle as well. Thanks to Piscez for posting that a few months ago! Patrick

07-17-2003, 11:15 PM	#7
Lobstrosity Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 719	Oh shit, now I see it! I wasn't looking at the right part of the ear... Whoa, that's awesome.

07-18-2003, 01:26 AM	#8
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	Trust me, there are no virgins in Guadeloupe. The French were there.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.