waxm

I must admit that of all arguements presented to me by supporters of Christian theology so far, the concept of "free will" is the most exasperating.

If "God" did exist, and were all powerful, then it would know any future choice that its creation would make.
Because of this, it would be creating that creation for the purpose of allowing that creation to make the choices that it already knows it will make.
Thus, "God" could not hold his creation responsible for making that choice.

Christians, of course, would have us believe that the creator would then condemn that creation for making the choice that it, itself allowed!

In other words, before the crack babies mother would have been created, "God" would have known that she would cause the suffuring of that child, and yet, allowed her to exist so that the suffering could take place.

The only choice made would be its own (Gods).
If God did exist, then we would have only one entity to blaim for the crack babies suffering.

Automaton

Stay tuned for God Knows What You Did Next Summer.

GunnerJ

Of course, since god exists outside time, we can't talk about before or after with him.

DarkBronzePlant

Oh yeah, free will... what a load of crap.

We're all doomed to hell because god gave Adam & Eve free will, and as a result they chose incorrectly. Like omnipotent god couldn't see that one coming.

Tercel

No doubt. It is a difficult concept to understand and even more difficult to explain clearly. Since many Christians know little about that which they supposedly believe it is no surpise to me and no fault on your part that you don't understand it. However I note you miss out a major piece of Christian doctrine in your argument: Demons etc.

When Christians attribute omnipotence, or omniscience to God what we mean is that God is all powerful with respect what is logically possible within this created world. God, for example, cannot kill himself, or make a square circle etc.

That is not entirely certain. It depends upon just exactly how you think creation proceeded.
It may be that when God created us he didn't know the choices we'd make.
See, God is all-knowing as regards to this created world, but we as eternal beings made in his image were perhaps created before the world and God created the world to find out what we would do. But I digress...

As for this point, must I disagree. God knows what choices we will make. Why? Because he is timeless and sees all of time at once meaning he is currently seeing us making them just as he is seeing us now. Why does he see us making that particular choice? Because in the future that's the choice that we decide to make. The decision made is decided by us, not God. He merely sees us make it.

Who says it's God that does all this? The Bible is rather clear on the subject that there exist powers other than God many of which are malevolent, or uncaring towards us and the world. Did God invent evil? No, the Bible tells us that evil comes into the world through the doings of the devil - who is represented in Genesis as a snake.

Why did God create the devil then? The Bible also teaches us that the devil was not created evil, but was once a good being who turned against God. So why did God create the devil knowing he would turn evil? Perhaps God didn't know (God might not know the future of things outside this universe...) or perhaps God knew that the final result of everything would be best if the devil was created. The Bible certainly implies that the final situation of reality is going to be so good that the problems in the world now are nothing by comparison. Certainly, if God forsaw a much greater good, then his actions would appear justified.

Tercel

waxm

Tercel- However I note you miss out a major piece of Christian doctrine in your argument: Demons
When Christians attribute omnipotence, or omniscience to God what we mean is that God is all powerful with respect what is logically possible within this created world. God, for example, cannot kill himself, or make a square circle etc.

Wax- Wow, really?
So this "God" that you worship has set limitations and thus, is not in control then?
One would need to question why you would worship such a thing.
God didn't make demons in your theology?
Well find out who did, perhaps we should all worship that particular entity then!

Tercel- That is not entirely certain. It depends upon just exactly how you think creation proceeded.
It may be that when God created us he didn't know the choices we'd make.

Wax- True, that could be correct.
Yet if so, the Christian theology would be wrong!
God might lose then, Jesus may have his ass handed to him when he returns in all of his holy glory.
It may wind up, that you chose the wrong side to worship then huh?
I would rather not pretend....it would seem a much safer approach.

Tercel- See, God is all-knowing as regards to this created world, but we as eternal beings made in his image were perhaps created before the world and God created the world to find out what we would do. But I digress...

Wax- No, you don't digress, you make crap up as you go along..a big difference!
And if your little "lab experiment" hypothesis is correct, then I would choose not to worship such an ignorant being!

Tercel- As for this point, must I disagree.

Wax- Well I'm certainly not forcing you to!

Tercel- God knows what choices we will make. Why? Because he is timeless and sees all of time at once meaning he is currently seeing us making them just as he is seeing us now.

Wax- What?!?
You just said that he didn't know the choices that we would make, yet sees all the time at once!
Are you schizophrenic, or just outside of the rules that control common sense?

Tercel- Who says it's God that does all this? The Bible is rather clear on the subject that there exist powers other than God many of which are malevolent, or uncaring towards us and the world. Did God invent evil? No, the Bible tells us that evil comes into the world through the doings of the devil - who is represented in Genesis as a snake....Why did God create the devil then? The Bible also teaches us that the devil was not created evil, but was once a good being who turned against God. So why did God create the devil knowing he would turn evil? Perhaps God didn't know (God might not know the future of things outside this universe...) or perhaps God knew that the final result of everything would be best if the devil was created. The Bible certainly implies that the final situation of reality is going to be so good that the problems in the world now are nothing by comparison. Certainly, if God forsaw a much greater good, then his actions would appear justified.

Wax- Boy, you've swallowed just about as much dogma as you can take haven't you?
If God did not create evil, and could not stop it from being created, then you are worshipping the wrong entity.
And after your little party, the real God (you know, the one that really is all powerful!) is likely to come up and ruin it for you!
Again, if God did not create everything, then worshipping him is a waste of your time.
And if God did create everything, then the question must be asked, "Who put that snake in the garden, knowing that he did not create Eve with the capacity to resist its' temptations?"

I find you to be a very sad entity Tercel, constantly banging your head against the brick wall of common sense.
Such a divergence with reality is bound to cause you harm eventually.