Freethought & Rationalism Archive

uncle_onion · 01-08-2002, 06:44 AM

I am at present an Agnostic.

I have been reading "The blind watchmaker" and so far it all makes sense. I have a question though: If evolution is about survival of the fittest etc etc etc why do we as humans have emotions and would die for our loved ones? Xtians would say that this is the quality that God built in us but how woudl evolutionist answer?

UO

Amen-Moses · 01-08-2002, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by uncle_onion:
I have been reading "The blind watchmaker" and so far it all makes sense. I have a question though: If evolution is about survival of the fittest etc etc etc why do we as humans have emotions and would die for our loved ones?

You answered your own question, it is a survival trait.

Specifically evolution is all about the survival of the fittest genes, not the fittest individuals. Your brother/sister/cousins all share your genes and anything that you do to enhance the spread of those genes (by maybe giving up your time to babysit for them or using your wealth to feed them) makes your genes "fitter" than an equal but less social individuals would be.

Amen-Moses

Asha'man · 01-08-2002, 07:01 AM

Probably not the best answer, but look at pack/herd/school behavior. Clearly, there is a survivial advantage when individuals work together for the good of the group. Also, look at the survival advantage for a parent to protect its children. Both of these behaviors can be extended into humans, but seem to have emotional causes when humans behave this way.

Additionally, remember that not all evolutionary changes are purely about survivial. If a change or feature has no positive or negative effect, than it is just a change. Natural selection will not remove that feature, nor will it favor that feature. Emotions could be placed into this category, if you see no advantage or disadvantage to them.

Peez · 01-08-2002, 07:52 AM

Quote:

uncle_onion
I am at present an Agnostic.

I have been reading "The blind watchmaker" and so far it all makes sense. I have a question though: If evolution is about survival of the fittest etc etc etc why do we as humans have emotions and would die for our loved ones? Xtians would say that this is the quality that God built in us but how would evolutionist answer?

Hi,
Evolution is not just about "survival of the fittest," of course, but as you read Dawkins you should come to understand that. We do not fully understand emotions at this time, but they appear to be a system that helps to govern our behaviour. As such, they probably evolved to promote behaviours that maximize the probability of passing genes on to the next generation. Keep in mind that "emotions" may be said to include fear and hate as well as love. As for a willingness to die for "loved ones," this is often the best way to insure that your genes are passed on. As has been pointed out, "loved ones" often share your genes, and insuring their survival can be a good strategy. Protecting your spouse is a good way to protect the genes that you have already passed on to your children. Of course, protecting your children is going to increase your reproductive success greatly. Also keep in mind that many other organisms are willing to die for their close relatives. Do ants have emotions?

A comment about "evolutionists." What is an "evolutionist?" I am no more an "evolutionist" than I am a "gravitist" or an "atomist" or an "heleocentrist." What I am is a scientist. I do not pretend that science holds all the answers, but there is no question according to science that common descent is a fact and the theory of evolution is the best explanation currently available for that fact.

Finally, you start your post with the declaration that you are an agnostic. Do you think that this is relevant? Are you aware that many people of various faiths (including Christianity) accept evolution as the scientific explanation for the diversity of life on earth? I knew a professor of biology who taught evolution, and he was a priest. The way that you start implies that you are setting up a dichotomy: either you are a Christian or you are an "evolutionist." This is a false dichotomy. There are many Christians who accept evolution, and there are people of other faiths who do not. I suspect that there are even atheists who do not accept evolution.

Peez

webwonderuk · 01-08-2002, 07:55 AM

My personal belief is the fact that the human race is currently evolving at a substantial pace and many of our genetic instincts are being masked by our modern society as regards family instincts and values, nurturing, sheltering and and what is regarded as acceptable behaviour, we are now educated into what we should be and not permitted to develop our own natural genetic reactions to situations as other living creatures do.. If Humans where to follow there natural insticts i believe we would be of a selfish nature which is an unacceptable position in todays society. We are taught as humans to love and help each other but when it came to the ultimate sacrifice i am unsure wether instinct would actually take over and wether we could actually sacrifice our life for another (i have no intentions of testing this theory!!). There are many examples in nature of altruistic behaviour to save a family unit and subsequently the genes of that family, the bee for instance will often die after stinging a would be threat to its family. The female praying mantis often eats the male after mating, for the male he has made the ultimate sacrifice and not only passed on his genes in the mating process but also given the offspring nutrition and security by being devoured!

Peez · 01-08-2002, 08:22 AM

Webwonderuk brings up two very good points. First, behaviours are not determined only by genes. There is some interesting reading on memes about, behaviours that replicate themselves and may evolve. Memes are still controversial, but worth thinking about. The second point is that we did not evolve in the environment that we now occupy. So-called "civilization" is less than 10,000 years old, to say nothing about our modern, high-population, technological society. We appear to have evolved from Australopithicus about 2.5 million years ago, and from Homo erectus about 300,000 years ago.

Peez

Foxhole Atheist · 01-08-2002, 08:31 AM

I believe that most times emotion can be a very strong factor in regard to our relationships with others and that we conduct ourselves in accordance with those emotions; that those emotions were selected for in passing on your genes.

However, in my case, I have a wife and a stepdaughter. I would willingly sacrifice my life in order to save either of theirs.

hyzer · 01-08-2002, 08:40 AM

As has been pointed out, “survival of the fittest” is a much misunderstood phrase. Don’t try to view evolution by starting with the misconception that evolution is based upon the idea that humans must kill (or conquer, or subjugate) our enemies and/or rivals.

As for emotion – it seems readily apparent that we humans select mates (and thus pass on our genes) based on many emotional responses to the daily activities of living in the community of humans. Having highly developed emotions seems to have evolved within our make up as part of our mating processes. Willingness-to-die-for-our-loved-ones, or perhaps reworded as “self-sacrifice”, can easily be seen as an attribute that a human might “select” for in a mate. After all, many of us work our arses off to ensure that our family is feed, clothed and housed.

hyzer · 01-08-2002, 09:27 AM

Uncle Onion:

Did you see this thread "the evolution of morality?":

<a href="http://ii-f.ws/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=001623" target="_blank">http://ii-f.ws/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=001623</a>

uncle_onion · 01-09-2002, 07:09 AM

thanks for all the answers.

UO

01-08-2002, 06:44 AM	#1
uncle_onion Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: uk Posts: 81	A question about evolution I am at present an Agnostic. I have been reading "The blind watchmaker" and so far it all makes sense. I have a question though: If evolution is about survival of the fittest etc etc etc why do we as humans have emotions and would die for our loved ones? Xtians would say that this is the quality that God built in us but how woudl evolutionist answer? UO

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01-08-2002, 07:01 AM	#3
Asha'man Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: southeast Posts: 2,526	Probably not the best answer, but look at pack/herd/school behavior. Clearly, there is a survivial advantage when individuals work together for the good of the group. Also, look at the survival advantage for a parent to protect its children. Both of these behaviors can be extended into humans, but seem to have emotional causes when humans behave this way. Additionally, remember that not all evolutionary changes are purely about survivial. If a change or feature has no positive or negative effect, than it is just a change. Natural selection will not remove that feature, nor will it favor that feature. Emotions could be placed into this category, if you see no advantage or disadvantage to them.

01-08-2002, 07:55 AM	#5
webwonderuk New Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kent,UK Posts: 3	My personal belief is the fact that the human race is currently evolving at a substantial pace and many of our genetic instincts are being masked by our modern society as regards family instincts and values, nurturing, sheltering and and what is regarded as acceptable behaviour, we are now educated into what we should be and not permitted to develop our own natural genetic reactions to situations as other living creatures do.. If Humans where to follow there natural insticts i believe we would be of a selfish nature which is an unacceptable position in todays society. We are taught as humans to love and help each other but when it came to the ultimate sacrifice i am unsure wether instinct would actually take over and wether we could actually sacrifice our life for another (i have no intentions of testing this theory!!). There are many examples in nature of altruistic behaviour to save a family unit and subsequently the genes of that family, the bee for instance will often die after stinging a would be threat to its family. The female praying mantis often eats the male after mating, for the male he has made the ultimate sacrifice and not only passed on his genes in the mating process but also given the offspring nutrition and security by being devoured!

01-08-2002, 08:22 AM	#6
Peez Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 5,504	Webwonderuk brings up two very good points. First, behaviours are not determined only by genes. There is some interesting reading on memes about, behaviours that replicate themselves and may evolve. Memes are still controversial, but worth thinking about. The second point is that we did not evolve in the environment that we now occupy. So-called "civilization" is less than 10,000 years old, to say nothing about our modern, high-population, technological society. We appear to have evolved from Australopithicus about 2.5 million years ago, and from Homo erectus about 300,000 years ago. Peez

01-08-2002, 08:31 AM	#7
Foxhole Atheist Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Batavia, Ohio USA Posts: 180	I believe that most times emotion can be a very strong factor in regard to our relationships with others and that we conduct ourselves in accordance with those emotions; that those emotions were selected for in passing on your genes. However, in my case, I have a wife and a stepdaughter. I would willingly sacrifice my life in order to save either of theirs.

01-08-2002, 08:40 AM	#8
hyzer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: philadelphia Posts: 1,844	As has been pointed out, “survival of the fittest” is a much misunderstood phrase. Don’t try to view evolution by starting with the misconception that evolution is based upon the idea that humans must kill (or conquer, or subjugate) our enemies and/or rivals. As for emotion – it seems readily apparent that we humans select mates (and thus pass on our genes) based on many emotional responses to the daily activities of living in the community of humans. Having highly developed emotions seems to have evolved within our make up as part of our mating processes. Willingness-to-die-for-our-loved-ones, or perhaps reworded as “self-sacrifice”, can easily be seen as an attribute that a human might “select” for in a mate. After all, many of us work our arses off to ensure that our family is feed, clothed and housed.

01-08-2002, 09:27 AM	#9
hyzer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: philadelphia Posts: 1,844	Uncle Onion: Did you see this thread "the evolution of morality?": <a href="http://ii-f.ws/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=001623" target="_blank">http://ii-f.ws/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=001623</a>

01-09-2002, 07:09 AM	#10
uncle_onion Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: uk Posts: 81	thanks for all the answers. UO

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