x-member

Yes but God tortured his son, which was also Him. They were the same. Some even say that Jesus (ie God. ie the Holy Spirit. ie God. ie repeat three times) also suffered in hell so that We don't have to.

Were I a Christian still, I would only be able to conclude that "His" morality is very much different than humanity's.

Jon

Pomp

Jon Up North,

Were I a Christian still, I would only be able to conclude that "His" morality is very much different than humanity's.

You hit it right on the head.

I've actually had several honest Xians (one of those being Nomad) admit as much to me. The defense, apparently, is that God is really "good" and "just" and only appears "evil" or "injust" to us because we misunderstand what those words mean. In other words, the concepts of "goodness" and "justice" that we humans value so highly are not at all the concepts that Yahweh values.

It is, of course, convenient for theists to talk about how "good" and "just" their god is without noting that those words don't actually mean "good" and "just" in any sense that humans normally describe as "good" or "just." It's so much easier to win the hearts and minds of the masses that way.

nixon

And you know what you tell those Christians who say that man don't know good from evil? You point them right at Gen 3:22 "And the Lord God said, behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:"

You tell them Christians: Adam got kicked out of the garden of Eden for my right to know the difference between good and evil. "Man has become as one of us". That verse kicks the ass out of almost anything a Christian can throw at you concerning the old "Gods ways aren't our ways".

MadMordigan

In other words, the concepts of "goodness" and "justice" that we humans value so highly are not at all the concepts that Yahweh values.

Which is why theists who believe in such a god make me wonder: If their god's sense of justice is alien to our own, what security is it to be judged 'fairly' in that god's eyes? Perhaps capriciousness and vengance and sadism are 'goodness' to their god. No one would ever know until its too late....

ex-preacher

I'm glad you're re-thinking, but it seems that you're looking for ways to salvage your belief system rather than really looking for the truth. Many of us went through the process of re-interpreting our faith before we finally realized that we were merely "re-arranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic."

I went through a process of rejecting the traditional doctrine of hell and latching on to "annihilationism" when I was in graduate school. It turns out that this is a position that some Christians have held going all the way back to Origen (of course he was later declared a heretic). A book on this is "The Consuming Fire" by Edward Fudge.

Annihilationism kept me from rejecting Christianity for about 15 years. A number of factors led to my deconversion including the admission to myself that many passages in the Bible simply do teach eternal conscious torment.

Jayhawker Soule

Natural?

sighhswolf

LuvLuv,
You know there are a lot of theologians who will
try and divorce the OT god Jehovah, from the christian god of the NT.
They discount the attrocities committed by Jehovah
because it is almost impossible for them to reconcile the "evil" side of the divine nature.
Instead they opt for the "god of love" from the NT.
But what these folks fail to explain properly is that while the OT god was in many ways a horrible
vengeful being, at least the misery he inflicted
upon mankind was restricted to THIS LIFETIME...
this existence.
In contrast the christian god of the NT, inflicts misery for ETERNITY.
Aquinas writes, " punishment is meted according to the dignity of the person sinned against, so that a person who strikes one in authority receives a greater punishment than one who strikes anyone else.
Now whoever sins mortally sins against god...But gods majesty is infinite.
Therefore whoever sins mortally deserves infinite punishment and consequently it seems just that for a mortal sin a man should be punished forever."

This whole concept of sin and punishment and salvation and the "divine plan" and hell is supposedly the execution of god's "justice".
This being damns men to torment for eternity for insulting his divine nature and disavowing his existence.
Now the question is or should be, why does this happen?
Using the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent terms that christians attribute to god, it would appear that this god has complete foreknowledge of every human beings actions/inactions that will be manifest during his lifetime.
If that is the case then god has created beings for the specific purpose of damning them to hell for eternity which would indicate that this divine being is not above some kind of pleasure
or satisfaction gained by human suffering.

Now of course christian clergy realizes that it is quite impossible to reconcile this image with the god of love and benevolence they want to worship, and they dont want the image of a cruel
sadistic tormentor assigned to their god.
Therefore, they either ignore the doctrine of hell
or simply deny it outright.
Leslie D. Weatherhead says, " when jesus is reported as consigning to everlasting torture those who displease him or do not believe what he says, I know in my heart that there is something wrong somewhere.
Either he is misrepresented or misunderstood..
so I put this alleged saying in my mental drawer
awaiting further light, or else I reject it out of hand.
By the judgement of a court within my own breast...I reject such sayings."

Wolf

MortalWombat

Looks like you're on your way to becoming a <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/heav_hel3.htm#witness" target="_blank">Jehovah's Witness</a>.

x-member

Yes my Reptoid friend, it is called Language Reform. It is one of the tell tale signs of a cult. Religion started it, the Military uses it, but L Ron Hubbard perfected it.

Luvluv: I will make you the same offer I make to any person stuck in a cult. When you're ready to leave the cult, Luv, I'll be here to help you.

Regards
Jon

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Jon Up North ]</p>

ManM

LuvLuv,
For a different perspective on hell, you can read <a href="http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm" target="_blank">this article.</a>

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: ManM ]</p>