Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sidewinder · 01-20-2002, 03:09 AM

I just finished a book on the basics of the religion of Islam. In light of recent events, I thought it might be wise to educate myself about this religion. I had purchased a used copy of the Koran a couple years ago but I haven't gotten around to read it yet. I think it's next on my list. In any case, here are some comments about current events in light of reading this book about the basics of Islam.

Muslims are required to fight any people who are attacking the religion of Islam. The book didn't give any details on this. It's pretty vague and I wonder if it's spelled out in more detail in the Koran or the Hadith. If it truly is that vague, then it's no wonder that invididual Muslims have made their own judgements about whether or not Islam is being attacked.

Bin Laden believes that the U.S. Military should not be in Saudia Arabia because it's sacred Muslim ground, or at least that's what he has said. In all honesty, I still have yet to figure out with clarity exactly why Bin Laden and his terrorist network exist. I've heard Bin Laden also mention that he fights the U.S. because they side with Israel in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I don't understand why other Muslims are not more vocal about denouncing Bin Laden and his network, if they truly believe he is misrepresenting Islam. I would expect them to be very vocal and assist in all ways possible in bringing Bin Laden and his network down.

Another thing I don't understand is why other Muslim countries are not assisting their fellow Muslims in Afghanistan. In this book, the author said it is the DUTY of Muslims to help other Muslims when they are down on their luck. Yet, as far as I heard, the only Muslim country helping Afghanistan is Turkey.

Any thoughts?

Orpheous99 · 01-20-2002, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sidewinder:
I just finished a book on the basics of the religion of Islam. In light of recent events, I thought it might be wise to educate myself about this religion. I had purchased a used copy of the Koran a couple years ago but I haven't gotten around to read it yet. I think it's next on my list. In any case, here are some comments about current events in light of reading this book about the basics of Islam.

Muslims are required to fight any people who are attacking the religion of Islam. The book didn't give any details on this. It's pretty vague and I wonder if it's spelled out in more detail in the Koran or the Hadith. If it truly is that vague, then it's no wonder that invididual Muslims have made their own judgements about whether or not Islam is being attacked.

Bin Laden believes that the U.S. Military should not be in Saudia Arabia because it's sacred Muslim ground, or at least that's what he has said. In all honesty, I still have yet to figure out with clarity exactly why Bin Laden and his terrorist network exist. I've heard Bin Laden also mention that he fights the U.S. because they side with Israel in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I don't understand why other Muslims are not more vocal about denouncing Bin Laden and his network, if they truly believe he is misrepresenting Islam. I would expect them to be very vocal and assist in all ways possible in bringing Bin Laden and his network down.

Another thing I don't understand is why other Muslim countries are not assisting their fellow Muslims in Afghanistan. In this book, the author said it is the DUTY of Muslims to help other Muslims when they are down on their luck. Yet, as far as I heard, the only Muslim country helping Afghanistan is Turkey.

Any thoughts?

Because most theists are of the Cut&Paste varity (Only choosing what they want to belief and ignoring all which is unpleasant about the religion), and the fundies are the only honest theists there are since they don't try to hide the truth of their beliefs.

-DM- · 01-20-2002, 09:08 AM

All of the following was gathered from previously posted feedback:

Quote:

From Ibn Warraq, author of Why I Am Not A Muslim:

However, to pretend that Islam has nothing to do with Terrorist Tuesday is to wilfully ignore the obvious and to forever misinterpret events. Without Islam the long-term strategy and individual acts of violence by Usama bin Laden and his followers make little sense.

Jihad is "a religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of the Prophet Muhammad [the Prophet]. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Qur�an and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and repelling evil from Muslims"[1].

We read (IX. 5-6): "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them";

IV.76: "Those who believe fight in the cause of God";

VIII.39-42: "Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God�s."

Those who die fighting for the only true religion, Islam, will be amply rewarded in the life to come:

IV.74: "Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God�s path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward."

"Ah, but you are confusing Islam with Islamic fundamentalism. The Real Islam has nothing to do with violence," apologists of Islam argue.

There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism: at most there is a difference of degree but not of kind. All the tenets of Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Qur�an, the Sunna, and the Hadith--Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian construct derived by Muslim jurists from the fundamental and defining texts of Islam.

[for more see: <a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org/wtc.htm" target="_blank">STATEMENT BY IBN WARRAQ ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ATROCITY</a>]

Quote:

From the <a href="http://www.golshan.com/rationalthinking/index.htm" target="_blank">Rational Thinking</a> website.

Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85).

It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28).

It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17).

Quran asks the Muslims to strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9).

It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29).

It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter" (Q.5: 34).

The holy Prophet demanded his follower to strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; then after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Q. 47: 4).

As for the disbelievers", it says that for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Q. 22: 9).

Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28).

jojo-sa · 01-23-2002, 12:43 AM

<a href="http://www.islamworld.net/#jihad" target="_blank">http://www.islamworld.net/#jihad</a>

read this site it answers jihad from Islamic point of view.

about warraq's book.

he quotes mostly out of context. each of his so called brilliant points can be easily explained to any who is willing to listen

Euromutt · 01-23-2002, 06:54 AM

"Quoted out of context"? What's that got to do with the price of eggs in Australia? The link you, jojo-sa, posted to does nothing but post out of context, such as in the "Important message for non-Muslims", top right.

From this site there is a link to <a href="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/" target="_blank">a triple translation of the Koran</a> and I'd say that context is pretty damn immaterial anyway, having perused a number of the Shurah quoted by Ibn Warraq - reading it in context merely serves to confirm that these quotes mean exactly what they appear to do.

Orpheous99 · 01-23-2002, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
<a href="http://www.islamworld.net/#jihad" target="_blank">http://www.islamworld.net/#jihad</a>

read this site it answers jihad from Islamic point of view.

about warraq's book.

he quotes mostly out of context. each of his so called brilliant points can be easily explained to any who is willing to listen

Funny. This is the same lame excuse which Christians use to dismiss the nasty bits in their bible as well. They also use the excuse that it is "Mis-translated" that it has to be read in the original language, etc, etc.... An all knowing god of any sort would take all of this into account when dealing with us inferior humans.

You may mistakenly believe that it is being quoted out of context, but there also seem to be many Muslims who read it the same way as well and thus we have the terrorists who believe that they are true Muslims and those like you are not.

-DM- · 01-23-2002, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:

...

about warraq's book.

he quotes mostly out of context. each of his so called brilliant points can be easily explained to any who is willing to listen

Ah yes, the old "out of context," "those quotes can be explained" defense. Christians do the same when it comes to their "Holy" Book.

So far as I am concerned, no "explanation" from a jojo-sa, a Muslim apologist, or a Christian apologist should be necessary for what allegedly emanates from a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient "God."

So far as I am concerned, those quotes whether out of context or not are sufficiently self-explanatory to be understood as engendering hate.

So far as I am concerned, any book which contains such invective should be condemned as unworthy of belief.

--Don--

jojo-sa · 01-24-2002, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Ah yes, the old "out of context," "those quotes can be explained" defense. Christians do the same when it comes to their "Holy" Book.

So far as I am concerned, no "explanation" from a jojo-sa, a Muslim apologist, or a Christian apologist should be necessary for what allegedly emanates from a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient "God."

So far as I am concerned, those quotes whether out of context or not are sufficiently self-explanatory to be understood as engendering hate.

So far as I am concerned, any book which contains such invective should be condemned as unworthy of belief.

--Don--

002.190
Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

002.191
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

002.192
But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

This explains itself. Basically self defense and natural instinct.

All waraq's amazing quotes can be explained, for starters only the one above.

So Mr Don you say if a book proclaims self defense it should be condemned??????

Orpheous99 · 01-24-2002, 03:50 AM

Originally posted by jojo-sa:

002.190
Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

Define attack? bin Laden sure thought that the USA was attacking Islam, and there are a good number of other Muslims who think this as well.

002.191
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

Many Muslams could, and do, see not wanting to convert to Islam as a form of this, so they feel that they are justified in killing us "disbelievers".

002.192
But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Meaning, if they convert.

This explains itself. Basically self defense and natural instinct.

All waraq's amazing quotes can be explained, for starters only the one above.

So Mr Don you say if a book proclaims self defense it should be condemned??????

It is if it is the same sort of "self-defence" which the Israelis are using. In other words pro-active. "Kill them before they have a chance to kill us."

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]

Waning Moon Conrad · 01-24-2002, 04:38 AM

I believe that Islam is a threat to democracy, to freedom, to culture and to education.

I also believe that one day there will be war, the rest of Humanity versus Islam.

Islam will lose but western nations will bitterly regret ever having allowed Muslims to immigrate.

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Waning Moon Conrad ]

01-20-2002, 03:09 AM	#1
sidewinder Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omnipresent Posts: 234	The Religion of Islam I just finished a book on the basics of the religion of Islam. In light of recent events, I thought it might be wise to educate myself about this religion. I had purchased a used copy of the Koran a couple years ago but I haven't gotten around to read it yet. I think it's next on my list. In any case, here are some comments about current events in light of reading this book about the basics of Islam. Muslims are required to fight any people who are attacking the religion of Islam. The book didn't give any details on this. It's pretty vague and I wonder if it's spelled out in more detail in the Koran or the Hadith. If it truly is that vague, then it's no wonder that invididual Muslims have made their own judgements about whether or not Islam is being attacked. Bin Laden believes that the U.S. Military should not be in Saudia Arabia because it's sacred Muslim ground, or at least that's what he has said. In all honesty, I still have yet to figure out with clarity exactly why Bin Laden and his terrorist network exist. I've heard Bin Laden also mention that he fights the U.S. because they side with Israel in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I don't understand why other Muslims are not more vocal about denouncing Bin Laden and his network, if they truly believe he is misrepresenting Islam. I would expect them to be very vocal and assist in all ways possible in bringing Bin Laden and his network down. Another thing I don't understand is why other Muslim countries are not assisting their fellow Muslims in Afghanistan. In this book, the author said it is the DUTY of Muslims to help other Muslims when they are down on their luck. Yet, as far as I heard, the only Muslim country helping Afghanistan is Turkey. Any thoughts?

01-24-2002, 03:50 AM	#9
Orpheous99 Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 1,258	Originally posted by jojo-sa: 002.190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. Define attack? bin Laden sure thought that the USA was attacking Islam, and there are a good number of other Muslims who think this as well. 002.191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. Many Muslams could, and do, see not wanting to convert to Islam as a form of this, so they feel that they are justified in killing us "disbelievers". 002.192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Meaning, if they convert. This explains itself. Basically self defense and natural instinct. All waraq's amazing quotes can be explained, for starters only the one above. So Mr Don you say if a book proclaims self defense it should be condemned?????? It is if it is the same sort of "self-defence" which the Israelis are using. In other words pro-active. "Kill them before they have a chance to kill us." [ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]</p>

01-24-2002, 04:38 AM	#10
Waning Moon Conrad Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Victoria. Australia Posts: 1,417	I believe that Islam is a threat to democracy, to freedom, to culture and to education. I also believe that one day there will be war, the rest of Humanity versus Islam. Islam will lose but western nations will bitterly regret ever having allowed Muslims to immigrate. [ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Waning Moon Conrad ]</p>

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01-23-2002, 12:43 AM	#4
jojo-sa Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: europe Posts: 111	<a href="http://www.islamworld.net/#jihad" target="_blank">http://www.islamworld.net/#jihad</a> read this site it answers jihad from Islamic point of view. about warraq's book. he quotes mostly out of context. each of his so called brilliant points can be easily explained to any who is willing to listen

01-23-2002, 06:54 AM	#5
Euromutt Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Netherlands (the Kingdom of the Dammed) Posts: 687	"Quoted out of context"? What's that got to do with the price of eggs in Australia? The link you, jojo-sa, posted to does nothing but post out of context, such as in the "Important message for non-Muslims", top right. From this site there is a link to <a href="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/" target="_blank">a triple translation of the Koran</a> and I'd say that context is pretty damn immaterial anyway, having perused a number of the Shurah quoted by Ibn Warraq - reading it in context merely serves to confirm that these quotes mean exactly what they appear to do.

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