JonathanChance

Well, That fundie responded to my letter.

Have a look:

Mageth

teenage pregnancy, abortion, unwed motherhood, drug abuse, rape and violence exploded in our schools.

Most, if not all, of which have been relatively level or declining over the last decade or so, in spite of the fundies' squawking.

the U.S. Supreme Court has said repeatedly that students cannot meet together voluntarily and have prayer during school

Total BS, unless perhaps by "during school" he intends "during class." It seems obvious that the students should be paying attention or doing their work during class, not praying.

King Rat

Is He/She really saying that because we don't pray in school;

Wow, I never realized that the solution to all of these societal problems was so simple. I'm convinced, I'm gonna run out and (re)convert right now.

StrictSeperationist

Well, he's clearly an idiot with little or no knowledge of current Establishment Clause jurisprudence, and he miscited in his letter.

James M. Wendler's letter of March 23 is a perfect example of how liberals try to convince the public that there has not been a systematic approach to removing prayer and Bible reading from schools over the last 40 years. Although everyone who has paid any attention at all knows that the U.S. Supreme Court has said repeatedly that students cannot meet together voluntarily and have prayer during school we still have people like James Wendler who want to pretend like everything is just as it was when this nation was founded.

For more than 170 years it was fine for our students to not only have public prayer during school, it was fine for them to have the Bible read over the PA system. It was not until 1962 that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on the case from New York that a simple "generic" prayer was unconstitutional. The case was Engel vs. Vitale. In a 1963 case called Abington vs. Schemp, they removed the Ten Commandments off the walls of schoolrooms.

Since this systematic approach to remove every mention of God from our schools we have seen, according to the CDC out of Atlanta, teenage pregnancy, abortion, unwed motherhood, drug abuse, rape and violence exploded in our schools. We have also seen Columbine High School, Jonesboro Ark., Pearl, Miss., and Paducah, Ky., and the list goes on.

Mr. Wendler, we reap what we sow, and because of what the U.S. Supreme Court has taken it upon itself to remove every mention of God from our schools, we are reaping the results.

Abington School District v. Schempp (he didn't even spell it right!) struck down as unconstitutional a Pennsylvania school district's policy of permitting prayer and Bible reading over the PA. It did not so much as even touch on the Ten Commandments, and the Court only took up that issue (in a public school context; it has never ruled on the constitutionality of a Ten Commandments display funded by the government outside of the schools) in Stone v. Graham 449 U.S. 39 (1980), striking down that practice without even feeling the need to hear oral arguments.

Apart from the fact that he obviously doesn't know his case law, he's also misrepresenting everything you said (or at least from what I saw of your letter from your first thread). Unless I'm mistaken, you only took issue with his blatant lies and distortions, such as citing as Supreme Court cases Circuit or District court cases and associating certain holdings with cases that have nothing to do with them. Make it very clear that the federal judiciary has indeed been working hard over the past half-century or so to build a real wall of separation, and make sure that he knows that you support these efforts.

Of course, you should also point out that the Court has affirmed, numerous times, the right of children to pray in school, so long as they aren't interrupting instructional time to do so. It's difficult to see just where he got these ideas that the courts have ruled that children may not of, of their own accord, pray in school, so long as the prayer isn't being offered at the behest of the school system.

And he's completely wrong about his conclusions in terms of just what taking God out of the public schools has done- how exactly could a Bronze Age myth stop a school shooting, for example? I wouldn't send that in to your paper, but I would say that these sociological trends cannot in fact be linked to Supreme Court decisions from the '60s or '70s by any factual evidence.

Mageth

And he's completely wrong about his conclusions in terms of just what taking God out of the public schools has done- how exactly could a Bronze Age myth stop a school shooting, for example?

That's easy. If the Ten Commandments were posted at every entrance of every school, and the kids were allowed to pray all day long, no would-be shooter could make it past the spiritual force field formed by all the students' prayers and focused on the entrances by the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" commandment. They'd fall on their knees and confess right on the spot! Their guns would melt in their hands! Think of all the money we could save on metal detectors and security guards!

hezekiah jones

If you decide to respond, be sure to address his cheap shot "liberal" remark with two of my favorite stats:

Seven of the nine sitting Justices were appointed by Republicans,

and

15 of the last 21 Supreme Court appointments were made by Republicans.

I mean, who do these people need to make nominations to the bench, Rousas J. Rushdoony?

[btw, welcome, Strict S.]

SLD

Heard on the PA System of 1823:

"Will Abraham Lincoln, from Mrs. Johnson's 6th grade class please report to the principals office immediately!!"

:banghead: :banghead:

Stephen Maturin

Does "everyone" include the U.S. Department of Education? This clown is either an idiot or a liar.

That statement places him squarely in the idiot category, unless, of course, he's trying to bullshit us into believing that the framers adopted the Bill of Rights and invented the PA system immediately thereafter.

A textbook example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Well, two can play that silly little game, Mr. 'Hat. Thus:

"Ever since Congress went against James Madison's wishes and authorized paying Christian clergymen with public money to act as Congressional chaplains, we have experienced an explosion of theft, corruption, partisan rancor and sexual impropriety among our legislators. We have also seen the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Civil War, Jim Crow laws, Newt Gingrich, two politically motivated impeachments, Ollie North, and the list goes on.

"We reap what we sow, Mr. 'Hat, and because Congress has decided to bombard itself with the horror that is Christian prayer, we are reaping the results."

crazyfingers

Well, it should be easy to trump all of his *points*. The only question is whether your newspaper will print it.

I wouldn't try to address all of his mistakes (lies); only the most important one or two, because no one will remember what he said. Your goal should be to get a secular mesage out. Of course you could mention that the total number of mistakes.

I've had fundies answer my letters to the editor too. It's not fun but it's worse when they get on the phone and call you during dinner. That's happened to me too.

Minnesota

What I find odd is that so many of the posts here indicate surprise that a fundi would twist facts or be less than forthright in his statements. As a long established device to fool the less wary, these tactics should be expected. At least that's my approach, and so far it has been a profitable one.