sighhswolf

"And I [Jesus] say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do." (Luke 12:4)

It seems that Jesus was making an effort to comfort those who feared for their lives as followers of a subversive thorn in the sides
of the Rabbinic authorities and/or Romans.

An admonition to put aside their fear of earthly authorities, and stand up for their convictions
and their leader.
A nobel comment....made by a person who has no fear of earthly events, and who would stand and be heard as he delievered his message to his followers.

The interpretation I have made of the verse above,
indicates to me that this person Jesus was setting an example for his followers to have no fear of loss of life as they stood up for their beliefs, indicating a man of great courage.

But was my interpretation correct?
Was this divine personage above fear from earthy authorities?
Did he in fact live by the same admonition he gave to his followers?

"Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple..." (John 8:59)

"After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because Jews sought to kill him." (John 7:1)

Hum, I need to reconsider my accessment of the courage of this person.
The above verses seem to be contradictory to the admonishment Jesus supposedly made to his followers.
He tells his people to stand and have courage without fear of losing their lives, yet he hides from those who would harm him and fears for his life from his own people.

Something is amiss here?
Wolf

Jobar

[apologist mode]Ah, but our Lord knew in these cases that his mission on Earth was not finished, and so it was proper he avoid death at those times. But when the time came for him to give himself up for crucifixion, we know what happened then![/apologist mode]

diana

Um...no, Jobar. I don't think I've ever heard this story. What happened then?

d

sighhswolf

This is not the blubbering in the garden story is it??
The "Why Me Lord??" why do I have to do this?
Cant ya find someone else to do this?
Kinda like Noah standing knee deep in animal
excrement hollerin at god, "Hey you didnt tell me I had to clean this shit up lord!!!!".
And according to Bill god says, "Noah!!, How long can you tread water??"

Riiiiiight..Lord!
I gotcha now.
Wolf

Undercurrent

Osama bin Laden says the same thing to his followers. Maybe Jesus was trying to raise an army of suicide bombers.

m.

Baptist Vine

Wolf, take a look at the examples where Jesus stands before the Roman governor, Pilate before his execution.

Pilate informs Jesus that he has the authority to kill him. Jesus tells Pilate he would have no power if it were not given him from above. This certainly seems to be standing up to authority.

Here is what is obvious. There is a time to pick your stance, a time to choose your ground. I'm sure generals would give this advice, as would a businessman in negotiations, as perhaps an athlete or sports team, or a student involved in a disagreement with a teacher/prof, or anyone who has to strategize.

diana

What happened to "As a lamb before its shearers, he opened not his mouth"?

d

Mad Kally

HAHA DIANA!!

FATHER, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?

Gee, I think I said things like that as a young child while I was being beaten and exorcized in the name of the LORD!

Baptist Vine

diana

I'm pretty sure the entire interrogation scenario before Pilate contains descriptions of both types of actions - I would call them strategies.

Initially, Jesus is silent, doesn't say or respond in any way. Sort of like movies I've seen where the captured soldier refuses to answer.

Then after a while, Jesus does make the statement to Pilate about power etc., but not much else really. Pilate asks some deep questions, including asking Jesus if he's really the son of God, and what is truth. Eventually, Pilate concludes that whatever else Jesus might be, or claim to be, he doesn't deserve death. Pilate makes an attempt to let Jesus go, but I think Pilate finds himself caught in a bureaucratic deilema when he's reminded of his duty as a Roman official.

Overall, Jesus is silent and non cooperative. To use my analogy from the movies again, it's sort of like the captured soldier who's only response under interrogation is to say something like 'you'll never break me' - and then revert back to non cooperative silence.

[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: Baptist Vine ]</p>

katellagen

Perhaps you need to reconsider your assessment in light of the text and the larger context. The text says nothing about him fearing anyone. I think that assumption is gratuitous, particularly in light of the larger context.

Consider:

Other examples could be given of early attempts to take his life which failed. In the verses you quote he was not facing some fearful unknown event.

He knew what was coming, and nothing would deter him.

The next quote follows upon the one you cited above.

John 7
25At that point some of the people of Jerusalem began to ask, "Isn't this the man they are trying to kill? 26Here he is, speaking publicly, and they are not saying a word to him. Have the authorities really concluded that he is the Christ[1] ? 27But we know where this man is from; when the Christ comes, no one will know where he is from."
28Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, "Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, 29but I know him because I am from him and he sent me."
30At this they tried to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his time had not yet come.

John 8
20"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

You should read the rest of what he said to the religious leaders in this chapter before they tried yet again to kill him. Coward? Hardly.


Luke 13
31At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, "Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you."
32He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day--for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!

Fearful? Don't think so.

Mark 10
32They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. 33"We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise."

John 12
32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

Matthew 26
2"As you know, the Passover is two days away--and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."

John 19
8When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from?" he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
11Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."...16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

Simply refers to the fact that he made no defense of himself in order to avoid his execution, even as a sheep is defenseless.

Just one more note regarding another quote from sighhswolf:

First, this has nothing to do with fear of men or death, which was your original point. Rather, he's expressing the dread he feels at the prospect of bearing sin and sin's punishment.

Second, I infer from your mocking tone that you would believe yourself to be able to face such a prospect with far more courage and bravado. I wonder what the evidence for that might be.

Third, I infer from your mocking tone that your original post was as devoid of sincerity (though that was obvious from the start) as your interpretation was of understanding. But keep trying.

See above.

Peace

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: katellagen ]</p>