HelenM

No, no hard feelings. I'm used to Internet interaction, as my post count shows .

Jokes are tricky on the Internet; it can be very hard to tell whether a stranger is being serious or sarcastic.

For example, I don't really know whether you're apologizing or mocking me in the above post...but I'll assume you're apologizing unless further interaction proves that assumption incorrect

Btw - you love me? I used to sign all my posts 'love Helen' but I stopped eventually because I realized that I can't honestly say I love a stranger in any meaningful sense. I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt, which I consider to be an aspect of love. But that only scratches the surface of what love is, really.

Helen

aatayyab

Wow, I love that FREEDOM. Of course, how can a poor human species, living in a 3rd world country, under the dictatorship, and under the FULL-THROTTLE mullahs, can know the meaning of FREEDOM as you know? I hate you lucky Western guys/gals, enjoying all that FREEDOM. I still remember the loud last words uttered in a big voice as to reach the Kind of England in the movie "Braveheart" F-R-E-E-D-O-M.

I did my best in my last 15 years to get out of this country, but could not. I am stuck here. So, internet is the only FREEDOM i got which I am sure this type of "infidel" website will come under censorship soon here.

Regarding Doctor/God debate, I agree with you. One should have the FREEDOM to choose. Here in Pakistan, if anyone comes to know I am having such discussion about GOD, I will be BUTCHERED and in Atheists' words "martyred" as an example to quote on many of these and forth-coming forums/books/articles, etc.

You said you don't NEED God, well, I think "River" spoke on lengths at that subject and I am sure you will read that again to find the meaning whether we NEED a God or whether God NEEDS us.

Food for thought... isn't it? or a mere bulllshiit?

Amir Ali Tayyab
http://aatayyab.com

Inconnu

We are all potentially free within our own minds. Oppressors are everywhere, even in this "idilic" western world. They are the ones who tell you what to do, what is right, what is wrong, how to act and what to think. Make your own mind my friend, no one need ever know.

haverbob

Okay, then I will ask you for some reasoning and some scripture.
Please tell me about the setting place of the sun being in a pond or body of water and about the people that live by the pond. Are you required to believe that the sun sets or rest in a body of water? This is a sincere question because it's for reasons like this that I can't accept Islam. As mentioned, I can make excuses for the Bible (if I chose to) because it was the memory of witnesses (and memories can be faulty). But I can't make excuses for the Quran when I see something that's a little odd (or maybe even nonsense) because it's supposed to be the direct word of Allah. If someone in casual conversation said to me "I arrived at the setting or resting place of the sun, that raises my eyebrows a little bit. Wouldn't it raise yours?? I don't think this is an issue of cultural or time oriented interpretation.

HelenM

I can't imagine living in a country like that

Helen

brighid

Amir,

I cannot imagine living in a country like Pakistan either, especially as a woman and an atheist. As a human being, I am hurt very deeply that you (and millions of others) must live under such heinous oppression. I hope the mullah's never discover your secret. If you wish to stay anonymous I wouldn't link to any identifying information that might allow some lurker to out you to authorities, but I am a terrible cynic when it comes to these sorts of things.

The oppression you live under, and the strict and tyrannical rule that your Islamic leaders deem necessary to keep its populous under control should be a clear indicator to the weakness of faith. If it cannot be maintained through freedom of thought and conscience, if it cannot be maintained without the use of an iron fist, the threat of death and torture, if it cannot be maintained through honest investigation, then it is weak, very weak and if there is a God out there such tactics cannot be that of a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent being. It is the human construct of evil people desiring control and power over others.

I would also like to address your comment about atheist martyrs. I will tell you that no atheist I know of desires martyrs in any way, shape or form!! I cannot even emphasize that enough. We believe this is the only life there is to lead and none of us a keen on ending it prematurely. There are circumstances under which I would choose to die for my beliefs, but I would not desire another to die in such a way.

You must do what is right for you, and under the oppressive circumstances you live under you must make choices I cannot fathom. Be safe and in whatever small way you can fight for freedom.

Brighid

aatayyab

See.... I am not a sane person. I got two tongues and speak one thing from one tongue and deny the same thing from the other... right? How STUPID am I to portray like that in front of you. After all, you are the judge of the TWO-TONGUE championship and I am sure you will give me the TOP RANKING... right?

I am NOT a scholar.
I am NOT a God.
I am NOT a scientist.
and.. I am NOT what you think....

Since, I am, what I am. Nothing more, nothing less. See, how un-important I am? You were perhaps looking for a dialogue with President Bush, right?

Regarding Darwing, yes, I don't believe that guy and his shiiity theories of trying to make me a MONKEY

If you are happy with Darwin's theory, then I am afraid, perhaps many western parents have started to use the semens of monkeys to insert in the vaginas, to produce DARWIN-like-minded people.

Do you have PURPOSE? Do you understand the meaning of purpose? Well, you know what, I invented this word, and am trying to impress you with my so-called SCHOLARLY mastery. The whole world never knew what is "PURPOSE" and in no dictionary this word exists, right? PURPOSE is illegal child of Bill Clinton.. ok? I have to teach the whole world about this and I don't have much time and money since, Pakistani dictator does not allow me to become FREE person as you are.

Phew.....!!! I played many games with you so far... so, let's get real now. I still believe in God, prove me otherwise, if you can? :boohoo:

P.S. My daughter is the most wonderful thing for me in this earth and I respect her as a child as I do to every child. A child is a blessing and you are BLESSED with two sons as you said. But you can't see the God's beauty in it, since it requires EYES and other human senses.

Enough PROVOCATIVE statements for you? ...... Just kidding... Never mind. My mind just BLOWS up when I see all that misery around me without any REASON and in the name of GOD or NATION. I am disturbed due to that and whatever I said, or mean, is NOTHING personal, but universal. I don't know what is the purpose behind all such KILLINGS, murders, atomic bombs, suicide bombs, etc? But one thing I know is that in our Holy Book, it says "So, you think, you will go to Heaven easily? NO. Not at all. Before you, people's bodies were cut into half pieces and they still believed in God, Hence you will be tested with Death, Hungre, and many other things". Please forgive me for NOT quoting the EXACT ayat/para of Quran which I would request RIVER to do but this is the SPIRIT of Quran that I remember in response to today's miseries. But still, this response does not suffice me. I need more, can you provide any reason or purpose to whatever is happening around us?

Amir Ali Tayyab
http://aatayyab.com

River

Why do you think I hesitated when one poster , also previously asked for clarification of this particular verse?

Was it because I am deceitful? Honestly , it has to do with a problem ( a couple of problems) that commentators have been wrestling with for centuries.

The problem is that the series of verses in question exhibit three variables. As a Muslim, I am taught to believe in both reasoning and faith. Not one over the other. Thus when I go about trying to solve a problem , I must know the context . I can not analyze isolated verses ( verses in a vacuum).

These are the 3 variables:

X: The Identity of Prophet Dhul-Qurnain

Y: The Identity of Yajuj and Majuj

Z: " The sun sets in muddy pond or springs".


Lets begin with Variable X. Who is Prophet Dhul-Qurnain? He is meantioned as a powerful Prophet who made Iron gates ( merged with Alloy) to seal the Tribes of Yajuj and Majuj ( since they were causing a mess). Lets see what commentators have suggested as the Identity of this Prophet. Dhul- Qurnain's name literally translates to "2 horned one". Thus it reverberates with the Biblical concept of " 2 horned one" in Revelations. This name has also been a suffix for many Yemeni Kings. However, there has been a huge debate concerning whether Prophet Dhul-Qurnain is in actuality Alexander the Great. Alexander ( also Iskander ) has been related to the building of a huge gate in Persian folklore, and there are several documents appearing to confirm Alexander the Great as the Prophet Dhul-Qurnain. Now the problem is ? Wasnt' Alexander an idolater? Some have debated that there is a difference between the fictional Alexander the Great and the Historical Alexander the Great and that the historical Alexander the Great was a submitter and all his victories was due to his asking of G-d's will. Others have said that it was Cyrus the great king of Iran, and regarded as savior by some Jews at the time. Cyrus is known as Darius of the Bible. Still others continue to believe that he was a Yemenite king. This topic might still be debated further. Some say that this " Alexander" or Ishkander ( i.e Kandahar of Afghanistan is named after Alexander the Great) is really a Prophet by the name of Alexander roughly around the same time as Prophet Abraham ( Ibrahim) pbuh. How can we trace his identity ? Perhaps we can find clues to his identity from his aquaintances. Based on Extra-Quranic texts , Prophet Khidr was the cook of Dhul-Qurnain. Other sources say that he was a soldier in Dhul-Qurnain's army and unintentionally founded the "water of life" which Dhul-Qurnain was trying to find all his life. Now, there exists another problem . Who is Prophet Khidr? He is mentioned once in the Quran as the Servant of Allah that guided Moses . He is also believed to be the initiator, " murshid " of saints. Other sources connect him with Prophet Enoch ( Idrees), who was one of the only Prophets to ascend to G-d. Biblical sources state that Khidr is St.George or perhaps the ArchAngel Metatron. And if you want to go even further Prophet Khidr is usually mentioned as the character " Hermes" in mythology and the Green man of Europe as well as "the wandering Jew".

Variable Y: Who are the Yajuj and Majuj? Who are the lost tribes of Gog and Magog? They have been tied to Scythians an advanced tribe of people skilled with metallurgy and some how mysteriously vanished from the archaelogical record. Other say they were a group of primitive neandertals that escaped extinction ( for more on this study the field cryptozoology). They have also been called the Tartars and Sclavonians. This Caucasias theory is advanced because the word Caucasius literally means "Fort of Gog" after the story of Alexander the Great and the Wall. Others have theories that they might be the chinese based on some enigmatic verse that says "shaded with their eyes" and also related to Great Wall of China. There's one theory that advances that the Gog and Magog are the Hashemite Kingdom. Weak support from Genesis cites Gog and Magog as the sons of Japheth and the Origininators of the European race. The Gog and Magog have also been used as an Identification for the Mongolians by some and the word Magog has been tied to the Mughal of India. The Yajuj and Majuj have also been connected to the Biblical Nephilim and Amalakites as well as america and EU..hmmmm...your guess is as good as mine.-River

Now lets look at Variable Z:

"
He [Dhu’l-Qarnayn] followed, until he reached the setting of the sun. He found it set in a spring of murky water. (18:85-6)

Does it not imply that the earth is flat and be considered a scientific mistake?

Answer: The problem seems to have arisen due to an erroneous translation of the said verses. A correct translation is:
He [Dhu’l-Qarnayn] made ready his resources, until he reached the place where the sun sets. He found it as if it was setting in a spring of murky water. (18:85-6)

The setting of the sun in murky waters is a figurative portrayal. When one is standing on the shores where the sun sets, the scene is very much like what the verse says. It seems as if the sun is setting in murky waters. The style adopted by the Qur’an indicates that Dhu’l-Qarnayn had conquered all the known parts of the West at that time. He had reached the end of the known land territory and now only the expanse of water remained beyond it. It must be appreciated that the language of the Qur’an is highly literary and it often employs figurative styles and constructions to convey its meanings. If one does not have a literary taste, he fails to grasp the delicacy and elegance of such
styles. "http://www.renaissance.com.pk/novquer2y1.html


Qu'ran definitely has some sort of metaphorical component or spin-off groups such as Bahaii and Sikh beliefs couldnt have formed , since they were derived mainly of the metaphorical side of Islam. Well anyways....

This should have been pretty obvious from the other Quranic verse that said that the Day merged into the night.... ( without taking exceptions to consideration, since everything has exceptions). There is no talk about the sun merging into a body of water. We tend to forget that the arabs of 1400 years ago were not primitive . They were not cavemen. They had navigation systems and ways of following the stars. Islam relies heavily on mathematics. We have 5 appointed prayers a day . We utilise the lunar calendar . And have compasses to map out the Qibla ( direction) of Mecca. The arabs were never that dumb that they would think the sun would melt into the water. uhmmm. And if the Prophet said something that dumb...Islam would have been rejected point blank. Well to show you how sophisticated
the Quran is take a look at the following verse:


[THE SUN WILL EXTINGUISH AFTER A CERTAIN PERIOD]

"And the Sun Runs its course For a period determined For it;
that is The decree of (Him) The exalted in Might, The All-Knowing."
[AI-Qur'an 36:38]*


Insha'Allah , you found my response suffient. Perhaps not?-River

Inconnu

Amir, you may want to remove your website link!

brighid

Amir,

As a mother I think my child is the most wonderful thing on this Earth as well. I am overwhelmed by the depth of my love for him and the unconditional nature of that love. However, I don't see the beauty of any God (which God should I choose?) in my child. I see the perfect melding of my genetic material with that of his biological father. I see the beauty of the human experience and how a person can make a difference in the world every time I look into his deep, dark brown eyes. He amazes me, but I do not need God to feel joy, happiness, reverence, respect, love, caring, or compassion.

I doubt there is an atheist parent who feels any differently then you feel about your child, or as I do about mine.

We want the same things for our children: a life of love, peace and happiness, a life of freedom, health and opportunity, a secure future so that child can grow to his/her fullest potential, a life where he/she can make a positive contribution to society in order to make this world a better place for all, a place free of fear, humiliation, torture, hunger, pain and disease, a place where they can marry, love, and raise children of their own under conditions better then our own.

Children are a gift, a gift of life. They are not endowed to us by a supernatural creator, but rather they come into this world by very natural means. Children are not our possessions, and although they are of us they are not ours to keep. As parents we have a great responsibility to the world when we bring children into it. Children are our gift to the world. That gift can either grow to be a destructive force, or a force for freedom, peace, love, tolerance and the good of mankind. Male or female they have equal worth, equal beauty and equal right to live a life of their own chosing.

Brighid