tergiversant

1) God is loving and just.
2) Hell is neither.
3) If God exists, Hell does not.
4) If Hell exists, God does not.
5) War is Hell.
6) :. God does not exist.

Surely, there is some tounge-in-cheek here with premise (5), but the point is that theists must deny either (1) or (2) in order to maintain that both God and Hell exist. What do the theists around here do? How about your average "Joe Six-Pack" theist-about-town?

tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org

<a href="http://www.OklahomaAtheists.org" target="_blank">ATHEISTS of OKLAHOMA</a>

"Atheists are OK."

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: tergiversant ]</p>

ManM

Hell is the love of God.

tergiversant

I forgot to mention a few things generally considered implicit in the definition of hell:

1) Created by "God"
2) Unpleasant (i.e. torturous)
3) Involuntary
4) Eternal

ManM

Oh, nevermind then. Hell must be voluntary or else it doesn't make any sense.

seebs

I'm not sure that these things are necessarily mutually exclusive, but I've generally assumed that Hell is consequences, and is thus just by nature.

The Resistance

I think you have to add God is all-powerful as a premise. God can be loving and just and Hell can still exist, if and only if, God is not all-powerful (otherwise his loving nature would prevent you from going to Hell)

tergiversant

Indeed so. I took benevolence and omnipotence to be implicit in my use of the term "God" in a classical theism sort of fashion. Thanks for the clarification.

tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org

<a href="http://www.OklahomaAtheists.org" target="_blank">ATHEISTS of OKLAHOMA</a>

"Atheists are OK."

tergiversant

What do you mean by justice?

I mean letting the punishment fit the crime. Merely because a punishment is a consequence of actions (e.g. stoning blasphemers and fornicators) does not make it just.

tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org

<a href="http://www.OklahomaAtheists.org" target="_blank">ATHEISTS of OKLAHOMA</a>

"Atheists are OK."

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: tergiversant ]</p>

tergiversant

Do Christians generally believe that folks like me are going to happily take a flying leap into the lake of fire? I mean, in what sense could eternal damnation possibly be voluntary?

tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org

<a href="http://www.OklahomaAtheists.org" target="_blank">ATHEISTS of OKLAHOMA</a>

"Atheists are OK."

seebs

No special treatment. You put your hand in fire, it burns. That's *fair*, in a way that no law we pass can ever be fair. The pure inevitability of consequence eliminates any meaningful discussion of "bias".