Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Valentine Pontifex · 02-26-2003, 06:01 PM

Climbing the "Ladder of Life" In Grand Canyon by David Menton is so bad it is almost funny.

No mention of unconformities. I wonder why? :-)

Spaz · 02-26-2003, 06:14 PM

Those crazy reptiles, they were running up the hill to get away from the advancing waters of the flood I tell ya!

:banghead:

Duvenoy · 02-26-2003, 10:35 PM

All those organisms were headed north 'cause it was almost Christmas and they didn't want to miss out on Santa's ..... Oh, never mind.

Another pile of crap.

doov

Oolon Colluphid · 02-27-2003, 02:39 AM

Shit, VP! Why do people post these links? I have to follow them... and they make me sooo angry...

:banghead:

Cheers, DT

Jimmy Higgins · 02-27-2003, 07:10 AM

What, no pictures? I wanted to see symmetric layering of sedimentary rock that was somehow deposited by the Flood.

I want to see the footprints that show animals trying to outrun a flood (does that even make sense)?

I want to hear exactly how a global flood with huge overburden pressure applied evenly over the surface of the earth were capable of carving a canyon in the first place. Or did the flood deposit that sedimentary rock there and there was just a gap in between. I mean, there is no need to mention the fact that the plateau out there is shifting upwards, which in concert with the river, is what caused the canyon. Details. Its all just details. But I thought perhaps a couple of pictures would have been nice.

Though, I am surprised that no bones were found. I mean, the dinosaurs in the area would have been drowned out. All the animals that left footprints would have been killed. Where are their bones?

All from a PhD? Once again proving BS MS PhD stands for Bullstuff, more stuff, piled higher and deeper.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 02-27-2003, 08:39 AM

Did a google search--this guy is (apparently) a PhD in...

Biology.

We're fucked boys.

j/k.

King's Indian · 02-27-2003, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valentine Pontifex
Climbing the "Ladder of Life" In Grand Canyon by David Menton is so bad it is almost funny.

No mention of unconformities. I wonder why? :-)

Hello, VP

No "almost" about it:

Quote:

From the Link:
Several years ago, I was challenged by an evolutionist colleague to visit the Grand Canyon in Arizona[...]

Something tells me it was "jump over", rather than "visit".

And another thing: when do these chaps decide that it's time to switch to italics?*. Once every paragraph? Mind you, they do compel assent, don't they just?

Cheers,

KI.

*Like I don't. Oh well.

Valentine Pontifex · 02-27-2003, 02:07 PM

The Handy Dandy Evolution Refuter has some silly comments:

Quote:

A striking example of missing time has recently been studied in the Grand Canyon.15 Along the North Kaibab Trail the Mississippian Redwall Limestone is seen to intertongue with the lower and supposedly much older Cambrian Muav Limestone. There is no evidence of a disconformity. It appears that the two strata were deposited almost simultaneously. Yet according to the evolutionary time scale a period of 200 million years separates these two limestone deposits.

Let me get this straight. Sometimes the Redwall Limestone and Muav Limestone are in contact and sometimes there is the Temple Butte Limestone between them. How could this not be a disconformity? :banghead:

Duane Gish wrote in the CRSQ:

Quote:

Waisgerber and his colleagues confirmed Burdick's observations concerning interbedding of the Cambrian Muav and the Mississippian Redwall. Along the North Kaibab Trail is a sign erected by the National Park Service identifying the contact between the Redwall Limestone and the Muav Limestone. The CRS team reports that commencing from an area about 100 yards north of the sign to about 100 yards south of the sign, all beds apparently interfinger with one another. They determined that yellowish appearing micaceous shales were the uppermost Cambrian Muav Limestone. Immediately above these shales were typically reddishcolored Mississippian Redwall Limestone beds. Any attempt to trace individual beds laterally, southerly or northerly along the North Kaibab Trail, however, resulted in a reverse stratigraphic relationship. Supposedly, older Muav Formation yellowish beds rested on allegedly younger reddish-stained Redwall limestone beds. Lateral and vertical facies changes within both formations indicate the absence of unconformable relationships between the Redwall Limestone and the Muav Limestone. In other words, where allegedly older Cambrian Muav Limestone rests on allegedly younger Mississippian Redwall Limestone, the contact is a true sedimentary contact and thus the Muav Limestone was deposited on top of the Redwall Limestone. The evidence contradicts the notion that here, where "older" strata (older by 200 million years!) rests on "younger" strata, the inversion was caused by overthrusting or other geologic events.

Waisgerber and colleagues searched an area 50 feet above and below the contact line between the Muav Limestone and Redwall Limestone for physical evidences of the supposed 200 million-year hiatus between these two formations. They point out that such evidences would include: 1) obvious, pronounced erosional features incised into the highest of Muav Limestone beds; 2) basal Redwall Limestone beds exhibiting boulders and cobbles of eroded Muav Limestone beds; 3) Muav Limestone beds dipping somewhat more steeply than overlying Redwall Limestone beds; 4) Muav Limestone beds being somewhat more folded than Redwall Limestone beds; 5) more complex joint systems in the Muav than in the Redwall; 6) more faulting in the Muav than in the Redwall, and particularly; 7) a decidedly different lithology within each of the formations, due to supposed changing regional environments. None of these features was seen. All of the beds were seen to be homoclinal, each bed resting directly on another bed with no known structural deviation. joint planes commencing in alleged Muav Limestone beds seemingly intersected Redwall Limestone similarly. There were no notches and grooves (which would be evidence of a time gap, the time required for the underlying strata to be incised by erosion) in the underlying Cambrian Muav Limestone filled in by material from the Mississippian Redwall Formation, as should be the case if there were a huge time gap between the laying down of these two formations. The evidence clearly indicates that the Mississippian Redwall Limestone was laid down conformably on the Cambrian Muav Limestone with no time gap in between.

Gish does not as much as mention the Temple Butte Limestone at all!

Mageth · 02-27-2003, 02:52 PM

From the first link, a mistake in the first paragraph:

Here, he said, I would see that the many layers of rock forming the walls of the Canyon get progressively older as one descends from the rim (where the rocks are "only" about 60-million years old)...

Umm, IIRC, the Kaibab limestone is @250 million years old.

In not a single case is there fossil evidence to show what their presumed ancestors looked like -- they appear all at once and fully formed!

Utter bullshit.

Mageth · 02-27-2003, 03:24 PM

It's interesting that while all that depositin' and floodin' was going on, packrats were busy building middens up and down the walls of the Grand Canyon. Packrat middens have been dated to up to a bit over 50,000 years old (practical age determination limited by radiocarbon dating).

02-26-2003, 06:01 PM	#1
Valentine Pontifex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 3,092	YECs and the Grand Canyon Climbing the "Ladder of Life" In Grand Canyon by David Menton is so bad it is almost funny. No mention of unconformities. I wonder why? :-)

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02-26-2003, 06:14 PM	#2
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	Those crazy reptiles, they were running up the hill to get away from the advancing waters of the flood I tell ya! :banghead:

02-26-2003, 10:35 PM	#3
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	All those organisms were headed north 'cause it was almost Christmas and they didn't want to miss out on Santa's ..... Oh, never mind. Another pile of crap. doov

02-27-2003, 02:39 AM	#4
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	Shit, VP! Why do people post these links? I have to follow them... and they make me sooo angry... :banghead: Cheers, DT

02-27-2003, 07:10 AM	#5
Jimmy Higgins Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Proud Citizen of Freedonia Posts: 42,473	What, no pictures? I wanted to see symmetric layering of sedimentary rock that was somehow deposited by the Flood. I want to see the footprints that show animals trying to outrun a flood (does that even make sense)? I want to hear exactly how a global flood with huge overburden pressure applied evenly over the surface of the earth were capable of carving a canyon in the first place. Or did the flood deposit that sedimentary rock there and there was just a gap in between. I mean, there is no need to mention the fact that the plateau out there is shifting upwards, which in concert with the river, is what caused the canyon. Details. Its all just details. But I thought perhaps a couple of pictures would have been nice. Though, I am surprised that no bones were found. I mean, the dinosaurs in the area would have been drowned out. All the animals that left footprints would have been killed. Where are their bones? All from a PhD? Once again proving BS MS PhD stands for Bullstuff, more stuff, piled higher and deeper.

02-27-2003, 08:39 AM	#6
Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Heaven Posts: 6,980	Did a google search--this guy is (apparently) a PhD in... Biology. We're fucked boys. j/k.

02-27-2003, 02:52 PM	#9
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	From the first link, a mistake in the first paragraph: Here, he said, I would see that the many layers of rock forming the walls of the Canyon get progressively older as one descends from the rim (where the rocks are "only" about 60-million years old)... Umm, IIRC, the Kaibab limestone is @250 million years old. In not a single case is there fossil evidence to show what their presumed ancestors looked like -- they appear all at once and fully formed! Utter bullshit.

02-27-2003, 03:24 PM	#10
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	It's interesting that while all that depositin' and floodin' was going on, packrats were busy building middens up and down the walls of the Grand Canyon. Packrat middens have been dated to up to a bit over 50,000 years old (practical age determination limited by radiocarbon dating).

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