Rhea

I think it is kind when someone says, "can I get that box for you". That's caring. However, it becomes chauvanistic when I reply "thank you, I'm all set" and they continue, "no really, that's heavy". (to which I invariably reply, "oh I couldn't let you, really, your age...")

I think it's caring when someone opens the door. I think it's chauvanistic when they refuse to go through the door _you_ opened for _them_.

I think it's caring when someone opens a car door. I think it's chauvanistic when they get huffy if I don't wait for it.

And, as a pregnant woman, I think it's great when I'm huffing & puffing and am offered a seat. But, as a healthy pregnant woman, I will still stand for the elderly to have a seat (I just take two spaces standing, LOL).

I agree completely that "chivalry" means one way, in my mind, and brings to mind men who are offended if I don't accept. While "caring" goes all ways, and includes recognizing no insult when the person chooses to do it themselves, for whatever reason.

cheetah

First, I want to say to Frank that I was really touched by your story. Actually, there are a lot of great stories in this thread, but I think it's great that those two men were self-confident enough to offer you help and you were not offended by receiving their help. In my experience, men aren't always comfortable with help. I would have liked to have seen that occurence and it's nice to know it happens!

To Bob, women and men are not "equal" meaning the same, but they do deserve equal rights, protection, and opportunities to show their talents, which I think is what the whole liberation started about. Over time, equal rights and protection morphed into just plain equal, but we all acknowledge that women and men are not exactly the same; at the same time, we are more the same as each other than either one is to, say, a tiger. Bottom line: No one should complain about not being considered the "same." But, I think it is both diversionary and closed-minded when people use the excuse that we are not the "exact same" to dismiss the whole liberation movement which is actually about equal treatment and status. NOT that I am at all implying you even started to go in that direction, but some people do, and I find it unfortunate.

As for my views: I think chivalry is nice when the motivation behind it is that you just want to do something good for that person. That's just how considerate you are. Like, when I don't want to wash the dishes, but I get inspired to because I think of how my husband will appreciate the fact that he doesn't have to and the kitchen is clean. Sometimes he gets inspired by that same feeling and that is a great chivalry. I DON'T like chivalry if I am under the impression that someone is doing it out of a disdain for my own abilities or even just because they are expected to. On the former, this does happen at work sometimes. Well, mostly when I was new and people hadn't had a chance to get to know my style or talents yet. They treat me different now, and don't hold my hand as much, which I think is GREAT!

I also like when men and women feel comfortable being the object of the chivalry or consideration. I never turn someone down if it happens to me, and I don't stare or gripe if they don't do a particular thing (unless it's really rude, like making me carry in the 10 bags of groceries and him not even picking up one....that doesn't usually happen though, it's just common sense.) For instance, just last week at the grocery store, we only had two bags and my husband was putting away his money or card or whatever and getting out the keys to the car...so I carried them both. No big deal, right? So we walked all the way through the parking lot with me carrying the two bags and him not carrying anything. I like that, too. I was just helping out, and then even when he didn't need the help, it wasn't like I felt I needed to insist he take one or both of the bags back. It was just a short way, and I was happy to carry them.

In another, different example, my husband and I are avid hikers, though I am certainly not in as good a condition as he is. When we hike, he almost always carries our day pack. This IS because I have less physical ability (I COULD get better, but I am still working on that) and the net benefit is if he carries the bag, we move faster and more efficiently. But, I also hate not contributing, so usually on the way back (esp. if the beginning was UP the mountain and the end is DOWNhill) I offer to take the backpack. He might often say, "Nah, it's fine." So, again, I'm not gonna make a big deal. But, sometimes I do take it and most importantly, i would HATE to rest on the assumption that he will or should always carry it. I think both men and women enjoy being able to help out or do something for the other at times, and I think it is a shame when either of them are not able to because the other feels insecure with it!

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: cheetah ]</p>

Arrowman

All I can say is "me too" to most of the posts here. I think only once in my life has a woman overtly refused to accept an opened door from me - it's called politeness, not chivalry. And I, and my male friends, open doors for guys too.

On a lighter note - I think the most inappropriate piece of "chivalry" has to be the old fashioned practice of the men at the table all standing when a woman gets up to leave - in a restaurant, it's just the equivalent of everyone pointing at her and saying loudly - "Hey everyone - this lady is going to the toilet right now!"

cheetah

LOL!!

Good Point, Arrowman!

elwoodblues

Here's a write-up I made over at everything2.com One of my best, too (30 upvotes and 6 downvotes, plus a Ching!):

(idea) by elwoodblues (print) Reputation: 24 (+30/-6) 1 C! Wed Apr 4 2001 at 20:59:21 UTC

The question here is why some girls will haul off and kick a guy in the valuables for holding the door open. I'm glad to say that those instances seem to be decreasing over time, but it still happens sometimes. I think I know why, and it's the classic source of trouble between the sexes (hell, between humans...)

Miscommunication.

There are two very different reasons to open a door for someone.

1) If they are very weak, or old, or burdened, or sick, or tired, or drunk, or whatever. If that person seems physically incapable of opening the door, it's considered kind and courteous to hold it open. (Please note that even though I am an objectivist (little 'o'), and also reject the social contract, I still do the above every time the opportunity arises; I see no contradiction there.) This his how some women always see it, as if the guy thinks she is weak or incapable of opening a bloody door. I can see how that would be offensive, I really can. I also think that that's not how it's usually meant.

2) This is a bit complex, but it's how I understand my desire to hold doors open for my gf. I respect her. I am constantly amazed by her, by her talents, by her capabilities, by her wit and strength. I am bigger and stronger than she is (though not grossly so), yet I still realize that she is perfectly capable of opening that door just as well as I. And that is exactly why I want to open it for her.

See, I know she can open that door. I know she can pay that bill. And for that reason I take pleasure in doing it. It is my pleasure, and my honor to do so. If I really felt that she was incapable of opening the door, it would be an entirely different feeling, more of generosity.

There are some guys out there who, on some level, believe that the girl in some way cannot open the door. That breeds a condescending view, and they guy might eventually say, "Hey, you can open your own damned door." That's what a lot of girls think is always going on, that the guy is looking down on her. That's not always the case. When I do it, it's out of admiration, respect, and love. Quite the opposite of being condescending, it's a token of my respect.

chickensoupforthebowl

If I can just chime in here...

(1) If any girl EVER started yelling at me or got upset for opening the door for her, implying that i think she's not capable or i'm better than her, i would laugh in her face and shut the door and make her walk home. That is just nonsense. Guys don't open doors to make themselves feel higher than a woman. No, they open it to increase their odds of getting laid or to just be nice.

(2) It is such a joke when women say they just want "equality", at least in terms of romantic relationships, because it's simply a lie. Unless you're an incredibly lucky guy, odds are that if you don't hold some doors, buy some flowers (without expecting some in return), pull out some seats, and treat the girl a lot better than she treats you, you're headed for a life of lonely nights with lotion and cinemax (unless you get some skanky slut who likes it when you treat her like crap or a masochistic chick).

(3) I ENJOY holding the door for my girlfriends, buying them dinner, and treating them well, without expecting something in return, and for some girl, especially one i'm just taking out, to accuse me of putting her down, being a pig, or anything of that nature, would just reflect more on her than me, and I would encourage her (while i drive off) to calm down on the sensitivity.

Thank you.
(takes bow)

Rhea

ChickenSoup, LOL. My guy must be incredibly lucky, then. As am I. I think your perception is warped. Poor you! There is a better model for relationships than having to "treat her better than she treats you" in order to get laid with your S.O. Seriously, you have a warped perception of women, IMHO. Either that or you hang out with a crowd I wouldn't like, I suppose.

chickensoupforthebowl

"I think your perception is warped. Poor you!"

-Actually, it's your perception that is warped if you don't realize that a man almost always has to treat a woman better than she treats him. Of course, you're married, so your husband probably doesn't care as much now (he's already had you sexually many times no doubt, especially if you've had kids or gained weight).

"There is a better model for relationships than having to "treat her better than she treats you" in order to get laid with your S.O."

-That depends on the time of the relationship. If it's just in the beginning, no there isn't. Guys will, again, end up sitting at home, if they actually sit there and treat a woman like an equal, and not more, when they first meet. Of course, he could always treat her like crap and then say "i love you", which will probably erase everything anyway.

"Seriously, you have a warped perception of women, IMHO. Either that or you hang out with a crowd I wouldn't like, I suppose."

-Women are driven by status, money, and emotion. If you treat a woman like gold, for even a couple hours, rather than simply an "equal", you have a much better shot of getting laid. If you drive a nice car (bmw for example) you have a much better shot of getting laid. If you're Allen Iverson you have a much better shot of getting laid than the guy pumping gas.
I don't expect you to agree of course, but I'd be willing to bet about a million dollars that you're either fat or ugly, in which case you probably never could find a guy that would treat you as anything more than an equal. Poor you.

--Oh, and for the record I hang out almost completely with doctorate students or professors of one sort of another. (I'm not attracted to stupid women.)

[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: ChickenSoupForTheBowl ]</p>

DarkDruid

Could've fooled me with that huge barrel of cynicism you unloaded on us.

cheetah

Yeah, no kidding! If you don't think women treat men every bit as well as men treat women, you are deluded! Women maybe are just too subtle and smooth for you to pick it out, but women are great at complimenting men and making them feel like they are big, helpful, wonderful men. They accomodate men when the men don't even realize how much the women are doing to accomodate them and look beautiful to impress them and make them feel special. They make food the men like and women are WAAAY better at remembering little things, like your favorite color and your fave ice cream flavor and where you like to put your socks when you take them off at night.

By the way, if you think WOMEN are driven by status and money, what do you think MEN are driven by? Studies, by the way, have shown a correlation between testosterone level of men and their drive for power and money (ambition). more testosterone often = more drive for power and money.

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: cheetah ]</p>