Roarke

Here's a conversation starter for all you wily debaters.. Is Chivalry a form of making women subordinate to men, or is it an act of politeness to the opposite gender? Is Chivalry outdated and past it's prime?

I have even heard women rail against chivalry. When a man pulls a chair out for a woman, it is assumed by the woman that he thinks she cannot do it herself. After all, it's not exactly appropriate for the women to pull out the chair for the man.. I have met women that were seriously offended by things: Opening doors for them, standing when a woman becomes present at the table, offering to kiss a woman's hand..

Any input on this would be appreciated..

Jane Bovary

I guess we can't expect chivalry and equality...

echidna

White woman speak with forked tongue.

sentinel00

I think everybody should benefit from chivalry. In modern times, I would say the application of chivalry is to endeavor to go out of your way to do nice things for the people around you. That means men and women holding doors for eachother. I don't think men should stand every time a woman leaves/arrives at a table, but both men and women can help someone into/out of their seats.

It's not that hard. Chivarly doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition.

ju'iblex

i belive chivalry is outdated. it has been replaced by politeness and common decency, what little of those two we find in everyday life.

Monkeybot

Well, first of all, I think sentinel00's definition is absolutely right on.

To add to that, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with chivalry. However, I think it's a fair criticism to assert that women want it both ways -- they want "special treatment" AND to be treated like equals. Which is why I took to sentinel's idea; courtesy doesn't necessarily mean one group is put above the other, but that everyone treats each other with a basic amount of respect.

For example, I'm a young female, but I've given up seats on buses and trains to elderly people of all genders.

ju'iblex

i dont want special treatment and equality, just equality, it would be awfully hypocritical of me to think otherwise.

perhaps you want both, but dont start placing generalisations and imposing gender roles like that.

Megatron

Typically, Chivalry speaks of one way treatment of women by men. I honestly think this idea is both patronizing of women and completely obsolete. If you ask me, common decency that goes both ways is much more satisfying. That's probably why the relationship I'm in right now works so well - we are both (as Bill and Ted would say) "Excellent to each other".

brighid

I think we need to remember the times in which chivalry was alive and well and what the status of women was at that time? Women were indeed considered inferior and needed the assistance of a big, strong, strapping man to open the door for her, to get out of a carriage (especially in those horribly oppressive outfits) and pretty much do anything. An unescorted female was in danger of harm at all times and it was scandalous to do otherwise. There is a similarity with some of the Taliban edicts … pretty scary. I don’t think the motives were nearly as sinister and at points in time the motives where possibly quite noble.

It has only been relatively recently that women have broken through that wall of separation of the idea of the inferior sex. I know a few women who are offended by a man holding the door open for them, etc. But I believe those women are few and far between. I know – that as a woman who has lived on her own for so long and who was use to opening my own doors and pulling out my own chairs that it was really strange to me when a man offered to do so. Perhaps he took my quizzical look as one of disgust, but truly it was very weird to me because it happened so infrequently and because I had to stop myself and think – ok, this guy is really trying to be nice, walk a bit slower, let him open the door for you and smile. It was not habit for me to wait for someone to open the door for me, or wait as the guy got out and opened the car door for me. I think this is generally the case for most women.

It even took me a while to get use to this when my husband and I were dating. He still opens my car door first, offers to hold the packages I am carrying, helps me with my coat and all that chivalrous stuff. After the initial shock of having a man offer this for me and getting over my habit of doing everything for myself, it became a very welcomed and appreciated thing. I know my husband does it out of respect for me and because he is a good guy. He knows very well that I can do all of these things for myself and that I can hold my own in pretty much any circumstance.

So – unless a woman comes right out and says, “You misogynistic jerk – how dare you hold the door for me – what do you think I am – weak?” Don’t take it to be offensive when we look at you with this dazed stare or simply don’t wait for you and proceed through the door. Chivalry and manners are pretty much foreign to us and often we are on autopilot and don’t even realize that maybe we should let a date open a door for us, or pull out our chair. It simply doesn’t enter our mind.


Brighid

brighid

Just as homosexuals don’t want “special” treatment, either do the majority of women. We certainly want to be treated equally – getting the same respect for the work we have done, getting compensated commensurate with that work, not having to defeminize ourselves in order to be taken seriously in the work place, to have equal opportunities to education, health care and police protection, to be seen as equals in the eyes of the law and to also have our differences seen and those needs met. Men and women are different. Men and women have different needs and many that are identical. Demanding equality does not mean we have to ignore our distinct differences.

Women have made very serious steps in the past few decades. We have come along way and day by day, we gain a stronger foot hold and prove ourselves to be worthy, strong and a necessary and healthy part of a successful society. We still have a long way to go before we are on equal footing with men. But we will get there.

Michael W. Fox, vice-president of the Humane Society, said that, "to call an animal with whom you share your life a 'pet', is reminiscent of men's magazines where you (a figure of speech, don't take it personally) have the Pet of the Month." It is supposed that the continued use of the word "pet" to designate dogs or cats threatens to reduce their level of respect to the current status of twentieth century North American women. Now that's radical.
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