Trekkie With a Phaser

Earlier today I had a debate with a good friend of mine (who's a Jehova's Witness) about why I'm an atheist. I was wondering if anyone else has noticed similar attempts by Christians to try to support their belief with the argument that it's actually logical to believe.

For instance, one of the main points that I brought up was that there are SO many contradictions in the Bible that it's impossible to honestly believe all of it (or any of it for that matter). Her response was something along the lines of, "parts of it are meant to be taken figuratively and other parts are meant to be taken literally. There are no contradictions in the Bible." When I asked her which parts should be taken literally, she responded, "you just know!" I followed by pointing out the major contradiction of "an eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek". I asked her which one a person should use and she claimed that the "eye for an eye" verse in the Bible was actually figurative. When I pointed out that it wasn't used figuratively, she more-or-less said that I can't understand because I don't believe. This went on for nearly an hour with me pointing out one problem after another with the Bible and her constantly responding with the answer that I have to believe to understand, that it's actually being used figuratively, or not answering at all so as to pretend that I didn't ask the question in the first place. By the time it was over, she had somehow managed to convince herself that faith is logical and that simply accepting reality as it is, isn't. In fact, when she finally gave up, she told me it was because I would never change my point of view as long as I would only accept things which I could use my senses, technology (to extend the senses), or mathematical evidence to prove.

Do most Christians try to defend there beliefs in this fashion, with the idea that faith is somehow logical and that accepting reality isn't, or do most admit that it's illogical but continue to believe anyway? I ask because I'm more than a little shocked with the idea that anyone would try to support illogical beliefs on the grounds of logic.

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Objectivist Man ]</p>

tdekeyser

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Me talking to a Xian.

Arfa

The "you don't understand because you don't believe" is a tired and often used reply, it is also extremely patronising. Any premise can be logically evaluated, irrespective of the content, to suggest that the bible is different or somehow removed from this process is nonsense. People believe because they have no other frame of reference, religion provides a warm blanket with which to surround themselves with and allows them to feel free in the knowlege that they are protected and cared for. What they don't understand is that atheism provides exactly the same blanket but initiated without the need for a GOD.

Talulah

I am very familiar with the 'it is logical to believe' stance. I suppose it is logical almost solely because they view it as illogical to do something that would put you in jeopardy of eternal hellfire. The fear of hell overrides all logical thinking for Xtains, in my experiance. Ranking right up there with the fear of hell, is the fear of being wrong, for they know what a waste their lives have been if they are wrong.

I think that when they say that unbelief is foolish and deluded, they speak to the supposed result of unbelief more than the actual unbelief itself. It has been my experiance that they view unbelief as very easy and belief as hard. They feel it is hard to retain faith. Interesting to speculate on.

Mendeh

I've had something a little similar to Objectivist's conversation with my father (currently in training to join the clergy ).
He didn't say, as your friend did, that accepting reality wasn't logical, but he did say that one is not wrong to accept faith as a justification for thinking something, and if you don't accept that it is, well, there's no hope of being anything but an atheist, because the beginning of Christianity in someone is accepting something (Jesus is God, God exists) without any possible evidence for it, and being willing to 'know' it without requiring any evidence for it.

This puts any rebuttal into a mess of noodles, becuase it gives it absolutely nowhere to even begin, as your opponent is starting from the position that he doesn't know why he believes as he does, he "just knows" through faith.

Now, this seems utter codswallop while I'm writing about it, and actually rather scary that he finds it deeply beautiful, but it's clear that to him the whole business is rather wonderful and liberating, and that I'm to be pitied a little that I can't just 'accept' God's existence as he does.

CX

One thing I've noticed in ongoing discussions between believers and nonbelievers is that seeming need on both sides to coopt the worldview of the other side. People of faith are continually trying to inject rationalism into their position. Conversely many proponents of rationalism continually try to imbue their position with some concept of "spirituality". One need only read the work of someone like Carl Sagan or quotes like Einstein's famous "...spirit manifest in the universe" to see it. If anything I am more annoyed by the attempts of rationalists to give religious meaning to their views with some sort of Platonic concept of the beauty and perfection of the "Laws of Nature" or other such rubbish. At least one can understand the motivation underlying people of faith's attempts to base faith on reason.

Cretinist

One thing I've noticed with Christians is the attempt to hide behind sophistry to try to prop up their beliefs. After all, if you have to 'faith' that you aren't a brain in a jar, they're (somehow) justified in believing on 'faith' in the bible, or so the reasoning (if you can call it that) goes...

Undercurrent

I think that the fear of being wrong by far exceeds the fear of hellfire. If christians were legitimately afraid of hell, they'd all be living lives of ascetism, self-denial, and helping others, like that Jesus guy did. I might be so bold to say the only christian I know of who was afraid of hell more than anything else, and specifically went out of her way to avoid hell by doing what she believed was serving God, was Mother Theresa, and how many christians live like that?

Most christians, of the type that go to chuch every sunday, pray before meals, bleat to their friends about how important God is in their life, and maybe work at a soup kitchen for a few hours on christmas and thanksgiving, but otherwise live like normal people with normal people concerns (buying a house/car/stereo, making sure the kids can afford a good university, getting a promotion at work, &c) are much more concerned with being wrong than going to hell.

Legitimately having an overarching fear of hellfire is inconsistent with having any sort of normal life, with any sort of temporal concerns.

m.

P.S. Interestingly, the modern doctorine of "salvation by faith alone" seems to be the only solution to this situation. In "salvation by faith alone", you're sent to hell, not for being bad, but for being wrong. If I was more cynical, I'd say the doctorine was invented so that people could could rationalize to themselves being moderately self-indulgent, and still feel safe from hell.

seebs

I have no reason to believe that she had the slightest concern with hell; she was concerned with people whose lives sucked.

Anunnaki

There was an article either here or on AA from a woman who worked as a book keeper for Mother Theresa. Apparently MT was way off her rocker and wasn`t anywhere near as helpful as she`s been made out to be.
When MT died there was millions of dollars in the bank account,but she would make the sisters beg at bakeries for bread. If the baker refused,the sisters didn`t eat that day even though MT had millions of dollars in the bank.
The sisters were also given one outfit that they had to mend again and again for years since MT refused to spring for new ones.

MT had numerous ridiculous and unhelpful quirks that she believed were directions from god,but I can`t find the article right now.

Does anyone here remember reading this or know where it`s located?