JoyJuice

Question:

Does there exist any early Jewish writings that are critical of the ideal that Jesus is the long awaited messiah or/and he is God along side Yahweh? If at the outset they were still claiming themselves to be practitioners of Judaism, but yet not conforming to Judaism, did not one person write anything to refute their views? I know there are differing views such as Marcion and the adoptionists in regards to Jesus, but am I missing the writings of those who out and out rejected the views of Jesus? Or was Christianity so small and obscure that it never warranted a response? Is there not anything from the Judaism perspective at those times to call into question their views and practices?

Thanks, alkech

RED DAVE

The crowd went mum because JC was only one of dozens of messiahs, saviors and sectarian leaders floating around and not a very successful one at that.

RED DAVE

Asha'man

alkech,

There are several fragments in the Talmud that may refer to Jesus, but there are problems with those references. These pieces were put down in writing no earlier than 200 CE, and passed orally before then, so they may have been contaminated by later history. Also, the Jews were persecuted heavily for some of the anti-Jesus material in the Talmud, so much of it has been destroyed or obscured.

The references point to a Jesus that was stoned to death for blasphemy, then hung on a tree. He was also a bastard of the most conventional sort, with a roman soldier being the father. These could be attacks against the Christian story, or they could be the earliest form of the story, it's hard to tell which.

A good discussion of Talmud references is here

I also know of another writer, Celsus, who was a big opponent of early Christianity. However, none of his writings exist anymore. The Christian scribes, for obvious reasons, simply failed to make copies of his works, and time did the rest. We only know about Celsus' writing where it was quoted by the pro-christian writer Origen in rebuttal.

More info on Origen, including "Contra Celsus" is here

BeansRBad

I also know of another writer, Celsus, who was a big opponent of early Christianity. However, none of his writings exist anymore. The Christian scribes, for obvious reasons, simply failed to make copies of his works, and time did the rest. We only know about Celsus' writing where it was quoted by the pro-christian writer Origen in rebuttal.

More info on Origen, including "Contra Celsus" is here [/B][/QUOTE]

BEANSRBAD
I seem to recall that Celsus is quoted by Origen to the affect that he denied the existence of Jesus. He quoted Celsus as saying something akin to "If Jesus ever lived then he is wholly unknown to us." Do you recall such a statement in Contra Celsus?

Dominus Paradoxum

If you don't mind modern Jewish refutations of Christian claims, I would reccomend www.outreachjudaism.org

Amos

Who needs Jewish rebuttals if you are looking for a crucifixion? The best thing that ever happened to Jesus (from the Catholic perspective) is that the Jews crucified him because that is what made the story come full circle. Jewish law was needed for the conviction of sin (according to Moses) and the Jews themselves were needed to uphold the law against which salvation was to be found. Here Jesus was counted among the wicked and was crucified by the Jews after the head of state (the faculty of reason personified by Pilate) said 3 times "look at the man" (instead of "look at the Jew") to make sure that it was clear to all that there was nothing wrong with Jesus-the-man. It was the Jews and Jewish law only that caused the conviction Jesus and that is something to be very proud of.

Doctor X

Maybe if he got out more?

Explored some hobbies?

--J. "Can I Come Down NOW?!" D.