Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NON-theist · 03-25-2002, 01:20 PM

Many creationists seem to think that theirs (Christianity) is the only religion that can truly claim scientific accuracy. However, it is unknown to them (and to many skeptics and evolutionists, for that mattter) that some non-theistic religions also claim scientific accuracy.

I actually did extensive reseach on such a group of Buddhists in Thailand during a study abroad last year. Thailand has had a long history of Buddhist apologetics, as Buddhist scholars have struggled to reconcile the *irrational* aspects of their religion with Western science and rationalism.

More recently, Thai Buddhist reformists have insisted that their religion is entirely consistent with modern scientific findings. Of course, like Western creationists, they've had to obscure certain parts of their religion and also misrepresent science in the process.

In any case, the pupose of this post is to: 1) introduce the scientific claims made by non-Western religions to the skeptical community; 2) suggest that skeptics use this to show creationists that, if they were to get their way, we must also teach Buddhist science in the classroom; 3) Put in a plug for my research project, which is located at <a href="http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/j/m/jmd326/BudandSci.htm" target="_blank">this site</a>.

To me it seems that any religion can interpret the data to fit the world view. Christianity (and Western religion in general) doesn't have a monopoly on these "scientific" claims. I'd like to hear some general responses on these ideas and what you all think it means for the Creation/Evolution debate.

Here's the introduction to a paper I'm working on at the moment:

-----------

Quote:

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, the late Thai Buddhist philosopher and monk, once wrote,

�You will know instantly that Buddhism is a science. It has the structure, principles, and spirit of science. � At the same time, you�ll see that it is a religion, one with its own particular character, that is, a religion entirely compatible with modern science. Everything that is truly understood by science is acceptable to Buddhism, the religion which is a science of the mind and spirit� (Buddhadasa 1997, 16).

Buddhadasa�s statement poses a very serious question for scholars of Science and Religion studies as well as those of Science and Technology Studies (STS) in general: Namely, can a religion as uniquely non-Western as Buddhism claim to be consistent with another decidedly Western institution such as science? If so, how has such a unification come to pass? Does this represent a recent change in Buddhism or was the Buddha himself an empiricist?

This paper makes a preliminary investigation into some of these issues by considering a recent surge in �rationalist� Buddhist reform movements in the primarily Theravada Buddhist country of Thailand. These rationalists, like Buddhadasa, believe Buddhism is an essentially �scientific,� universal religion, open to empirical investigation and independent verification. Taking this into account, I do not contemplate whether Buddhism and science are, on the whole, compatible. Instead, I consider how Thai Buddhist reformists have constructed ideas about science and religion in order to portray Buddhism as �scientific.� My primary research derives from a field study done in Thailand in 2000-01, in which I did an extensive study of a movement led by a rationalist monk, Ajahn (teacher) Pongsak Techadhammo.

Rationalist Buddhists like Pongsak have constructed movements that are highly pragmatic, but also often highly positivist. Pongsak himself has used this discourse on science and rationalism to his advantage. By promoting his �scientific� authority, he has subsequently built a successful forest conservation movement with the support of the government and the public. The research, therefore, shows how Pongsak and other Thai rationalists have forged �scientific Buddhism� to their benefit. First I consider a general context for Thai Buddhist rationalism. This includes some brief remarks about Western rationalism and positivism as well as a summary of Thai Buddhist history and current state of affairs. Then I move into a more specific exploration of Thai Buddhist reform philosophy, considering how rationalists have combined Buddhism with Western scientific and positivist elements. Finally, I bring these considerations to bear with my study of Pongsak�s conservation movement and a general discussion of the rationalism used therein.

Answerer · 03-25-2002, 05:11 PM

Yeah, Buddhism talks about change as science does and not an orderly view of reality as other theistic religions believe in.

Jubal · 03-25-2002, 11:06 PM

I wonder if it would be possible to finally shut the Christians up by taking to arguing instead with the Buddhists and ignoring them altogether. We've shot down all their arguments, certainly enough that we can logically throw it out, and I grow weary of all their non-arguments. It would be refreshing to discover how Buddhist minds think, and a lot more challenging to actually hack apart their arguments, being that they think on a slightly different level. Personally, I respect the Buddhists.

Answerer · 03-27-2002, 04:34 AM

If there is a such thing as argument in the first place, you mean.

Jubal · 03-27-2002, 08:10 AM

Oh, there will be some friction, alright, just the same as there is friction between one group of atheists and another.
The real importance of such is that there exist a line of communication, an exchange of ideas, between us. I'm tired of seeing people envisioning some gradient between belief in the Christian god and non-belief in the Christian god; it's as if anyone who believes something else just doesn't exist! We need to shatter this illusion!

Jayhawker Soule · 03-27-2002, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NON-theist:
<strong>To me it seems that any religion can interpret the data to fit the world view.</strong>

Silly putty has to gross properties.

Jubal · 03-27-2002, 01:42 PM

More accurately, a percieved gradient between Creationism and Evolutionism...

What's this about silly putty?

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Swan-eater ]</p>

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03-25-2002, 05:11 PM	#2
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Yeah, Buddhism talks about change as science does and not an orderly view of reality as other theistic religions believe in.

03-25-2002, 11:06 PM	#3
Jubal Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NC-US Posts: 98	I wonder if it would be possible to finally shut the Christians up by taking to arguing instead with the Buddhists and ignoring them altogether. We've shot down all their arguments, certainly enough that we can logically throw it out, and I grow weary of all their non-arguments. It would be refreshing to discover how Buddhist minds think, and a lot more challenging to actually hack apart their arguments, being that they think on a slightly different level. Personally, I respect the Buddhists.

03-27-2002, 04:34 AM	#4
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	If there is a such thing as argument in the first place, you mean.

03-27-2002, 08:10 AM	#5
Jubal Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NC-US Posts: 98	Oh, there will be some friction, alright, just the same as there is friction between one group of atheists and another. The real importance of such is that there exist a line of communication, an exchange of ideas, between us. I'm tired of seeing people envisioning some gradient between belief in the Christian god and non-belief in the Christian god; it's as if anyone who believes something else just doesn't exist! We need to shatter this illusion!

03-27-2002, 01:42 PM	#7
Jubal Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NC-US Posts: 98	More accurately, a percieved gradient between Creationism and Evolutionism... What's this about silly putty? [ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Swan-eater ]</p>

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